Defining Skills Levels

[VGB]

Mark raised this point recently and I agree with him, and would say it is poorly defined by the instructosphere in general:

These threads get twisted out of shape because it’s never really made clear whether we’re talking about teaching beginners, recreational casters, instructors or competition distance casters.

In discussion with him over the last few years, we have tended to discuss skills acquisitions in terms of Fitts and Posners skills acquisition model:

There is a deeper explanation of the 3 stages as it relates to coaching here:

https://us.humankinetics.com/blogs/exce ... nstruction

F&P is not the only model, I quite like the Conscious Competence model:

https://www.mindtools.com/ah651dp/the-c ... nce-ladder

Unconsciously unskilled – we don't know that we don't have this skill, or that we need to learn it.
Consciously unskilled – we know that we don't have this skill.
Consciously skilled– we know that we have this skill.
Unconsciously skilled – we don't know that we have this skill, but we don't focus on it because it's so easy

I don't really mind which system is in use as long as it brings clarity to the discussions.

regards

Vince

[VGB]

Mark added this comment in the AoE thread:

The two techniques AoE and Old way, new way, are established means of dealing with what we call muscle memory in a vast number of movement disciplines. Over the years I have found adapting these two techniques and working with them in a casting lesson to be really useful. They're quick and very effective ways of breaking habitual performance error and which fit well with an overall objective of teaching ranges of control. They're also easy to understand and a ready made takeaway drill for independent practice.

Looked at in the context of F&P with a student in the cognitive stage, the development of drills to reduce the student dependency on external feedback is a major win, especially if they intend to practice after the lesson. Even very experienced casters can end up in the cognitive stage if they have major ingrained faults or are being taught a radically new skill.

regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Hi Vince,

I agree with the three levels with regards to skills acquisition and use them myself and teach accordingly using training drills.

For my coaching purposes I divide students into three levels. Beginners, Intermediate and Advanced. The three stages of motor learning apply in each level. I think you can still be a beginner in flycasting but have reached autonomous movement stage. You can be an Advanced caster learning a completely new skill.

For the purposes of my coaching and the way I look at my students, beginners really are at the stage of trying to control and shape loops.

The transition to Intermediate level is really about control. At this point learning to shape loops is unimportant because they can do this skill. At this level I am trying to shape pattern for better performance as well as expanding the skills base to include more variety of casts.

Advanced level for me is quite fascinating and the top level (some would call it “elite” but I dislike the term!). This is when a student has “grace”, is smooth and accurate with their movements. They look as if they were born to cast. I find the transition to this level to be very interesting. I’ve only become aware of it being a light switch since I’ve been coaching students over numerous lessons. For a beginner it might take two or three years of coaching to reach this point. For an intermediate caster it takes about one year.

I agree that the learning process defined above relates to the acquisition of new skills. What also interests me is what we do after this? Being autonomous with our movements is not the end of the journey but also the beginning of a new one.

Very interesting topic on how eyes process information in the motor learning book. It’s definitely worth discussing at some point. Perhaps when you ask them what they looking at and they say they don’t know, they might be on the right track!!

Cheers, Paul

[Boisker]

To be advanced do you need to be advanced across the board?
OH/speys/double & single…. or can you be weak in some areas because you never use / practice?

As an example… I only really OH cast (with some rolls: pick-up, basic spey- but more for repositioning the line, rather than spey fishing) and I’ve never double hand cast.

To get really good at Spey requires travel, I haven’t anywhere really to practice properly on water and certainly don’t fish Spey style.
I do practice Spey on grass, but don’t think you could ever really nail it without also practicing on water.

Could you reach/be classed as advanced in the range of casts you use or do you need the full bag?

[Paul Arden]

That’s an interesting question Matt. Sometimes Speys actually puts someone through the door. I’ve seen amazing improvements right across the board simply by learning and training Spey casts for a month (even done on grass). I’ve seen casters gain 10’ in distance after learning Speys. Their accuracy goes up. Their ability to execute and control mends improves. It seems to generate more time. Certainly one aspect of Advanced is the ability to control casts at a wide range of speeds from slow to fast.

To answer your question, yes it is certainly possible without Speys. But I would always encourage learning them for what they can provide.

I have to say though, it’s just a system that I use for my own student analysis purposes. It is quite difficult to define to others but I’ve been thinking about it quite hard over the past year or so, particularly if I start bringing in an instructor to assist in my courses. It’s certainly not a merit system or a badge of honour. That’s one the problem with using terms such as this — which is why I’ve resisted the term “elite”.

The reason for this categorisation for me, is because the teaching of each group is different. Beginners is very much about drills and exercises created to encourage a range of and an exploration of movement. Intermediates on the other hand is more about refining movement. With both of these students, introducing a change can be very disruptive, much more so with a beginner, but even an intermediate will hit a road bump. However with an advanced student I can offer numerous choices and the caster just seems to absorb them and can work with and contrast the changes to what they were originally doing.

If we imagine a lump a plasticine, with beginners we keep adding more lumps of plasticine and create weird shapes. With Intermediates we hone those shapes into pieces art. With advanced we discuss and experiment with different styles of artwork.

Cheers, Paul

[Boisker]

… I would have guessed yes to Speys and no to dh

Intersting on the difference you see on each ‘group’.

…. As an aside, I do like speys, there’s a rhythm and feel to them that is very relaxing, I keep meaning to go and have a lesson on dh, it looks and I expect feels very ‘zen’…. but not sure I can afford another wormhole in cost and time

[Paul Arden]

Phew DHD. When I was younger I had a dislike for the tweed underwear but it seems not to be obligatory nowadays. I do have a DHD HT waiting to be built in the UK. I’ve disliked every DHD that I’ve ever cast. But I suspect that may be my technique

I have one student at the moment who came in at what I call Advanced level. A young chap up New York State (everyone is starting to look young to me!). He bought a Comp5 V2 some years ago. He learned to throw it into the 130s. Which means he’s an incredibly smooth caster. Those are really interesting lessons.

He mentioned “nuances” on the FP yesterday and that’s what it’s about. Permit float his boat, so we have spent a lot of time exchanging ideas on shots, particularly before trips. I’m not going to make any major changes to his stroke or get sudden leaps of improvement. But what I can do is open the idea doors of things to try, as well as expand his depth of drills/exercises to help raise his game.

Quite a few of my longer term students are in this category now. The amazing thing is that the transformation is literally a transformation. Two went through last month.

It’s not something I’ve understood or even known about, because I’ve never had 10, 20, 30 lessons with one student, let alone scores of them. You have a student for a 10 months and maybe 100 hours of training, and then from one lesson to the next, out of the blue, they are a completely different caster. It’s like WTF? They know it. I see it. I almost fall off the back of the boat when I do. It’s extraordinary. It’s like having a new gearbox. In fact it’s like having a new car.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

He bought a Comp5 V2 some years ago. He learned to throw it into the 130s. Which means he’s an incredibly smooth caster. Those are really interesting lessons.

Hi Paul,
Since Bernt tops out at 130 (not 130s) in no wind with the MED5, I am wondering what line and conditions are at play when your student hits into the 130s?

It’s not something I’ve understood or even known about, because I’ve never had 10, 20, 30 lessons with one student, let alone scores of them. You have a student for a 10 months and maybe 100 hours of training, and then from one lesson to the next, out of the blue, they are a completely different caster. It’s like WTF? They know it. I see it. I almost fall off the back of the boat when I do. It’s extraordinary. It’s like having a new gearbox. In fact it’s like having a new car.

Really surprises me, if you never had any student make a quick but big jump up the latter in any of your former full day lessons? For me that's normal to see.
It wasn't in the first 15 years teaching though. Too often I didn't exactly know which small keys were missing to make the next step. The more I learnt them, the easier it got to have my students go up...
Regards
Bernd

[Stoatstail50]

Could you reach/be classed as advanced in the range of casts you use or do you need the full bag?

Don’t need the full set…

In Fitts and Posner world there isn’t really an “advanced” stage in terms of the scope of your ability Matt, the number of different things you can do. It’s about the cognitive load, one thing to another, how much of your working memory you have to use to grind the gears for any psychomotor process.

The more skilled you become, at anything, the less of your working memory you have to use. F&P linked this to observable behaviours. The less you have to think about the way you’re moving, the fewer discontinuities and inaccuracies there will be in your motion. We can use this when we teach to tailor content and teaching methodology to the caster.

However, if we look at the issue of busting muscle memory from the AoE and OWNW threads, it is because a caster has developed autonomic behaviour for a motion pattern that isn’t easily adaptable to changes in conditions or objectives. That is, they’ve become highly skilled, or “advanced” in strictly cognitive terms, in executing a stable, repeatable, but less than useful, movement. When they try to change this, they’ll effectively go back to the start again, apply their brain directly to the problem, and we see that discontinuous movement and inaccuracy creep back in. Some really skilled SH overhead casters, and some instructors, coming new to SH Speys or DH, experience exactly this issue.

There are lots of ways to determine whether you’re advanced or not. Is it being able to cast 130’ with a 5#, all the speys, sh, dh catch more fish, catch big fish, how happy you are on the water, good on the flats, under trees, dry fly, streamer, Grayling or a Marlin ? One of these? Some of these? All of these? That’s your shout IMO.

[Paul Arden]

I agree with the stages of learning, Mark, when a new skill becomes autonomous it is “learned”. What I’m looking at with my levels is that there is a light switch further on that elevates all these autonomous movements. Which I find very interesting.

Cheers, Paul