Under estimating translational movement

[Phil Blackmar]

I differ here from John maybe or at least I think so. John talks about maximising force, speed (and other things), whereas I’m more about emphasising the integrity of the loop (and carry length) as priorities first. I’m sure we both end up in the same place, more or less, and it’s just emphasising different things in preference to others. I definitely do not cast at 100% effort. Haul yes. Rod no. That’s not to say I don’t break rods because that’s a speciality of mine
Cheers, Paul

Is it possible you apply more force with your rod hand than you think? After all, if you're breaking rods, or bending a 10 wt rod that much with a 5 wt MED line.

In practice this morning, I was struggling with 5 wt distance so I switched to an over head body rotation, pull and braced stop method. My timing improved and line speed increased. I feel the timing better with the braced stop than over the fence finish. Does your over the fence forward cast mimic a feeling of braced stop that just continues or do you feel something else entirely from timing standpoint?

Thanks Paul
Phil

[Phil Blackmar]

Hi John

Thanks for all the comments. Question, how would you describe the finish to the stroke you describe. It seems to me that the 170 finish may be later that what you might find with other sports. Do other sports have a stop at object release, baseball or javelin, followed by deceleration where the 170 power application comes much later and thru power application? I hope that makes sense.

In my fishing applications, I like to go thru the power application to where the rod is pointing at my target, yet, in distance casting I struggle with what feels like early application of power when using a longer follow thru.

Thank you John

Ps. would love to see where your stroke is now compared to other older videos I have seen.

Phil

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

What are the applications you have for thrusting into the butt? That is how I throw my vertical underslung loop, but I'm not sure that's what you're speaking about.

Yep... exactly!

That is how I create a deliberate tailing loop to skip under branches. I include that small immediate mend to give the fly a window to pass through.

[John Waters]

.......I view the distance delivery stroke in two segments, the hand moving towards the shoulder and the hand moving away from the shoulder and seek to have the rod hand move forward on an inclining path. I used to move my hand in a V shape, or swoop, but no longer do. I think that it slows hand speed. I want both my rod hand and haul hand to attain maximum velocity, and you are correct, that statement just reflects a different emphasis in generating line speed..........
...... I view it as being similar to the key term "stretch and release", used in other sports. I focus on the body "stretch" happening before the hand moves towards the shoulder and the release swinging the elbow and hand over the shoulder.

Hi John
Your comments about two segments and stretch then release really strike a chord.
Based much on what you've previously posted I've been playing around a lot with of this.
Something that I think has helped me is that, as the lower body starts forward, I set in my brain where my hand should end up. When the stretch builds to the point it needs release rather than thinking of torque or turnover I just think of "Go!". It seems my cerebellum knows the fastest way to get to the final hand position and it just happens, bang. What I find interesting is that as the arm straightens it turns over the rod (late) without needing to think about it.

All well and fine with a 4-7wt, but by the time I'm to an 8-10 wt, or for casts that do not require high line speeds or high trajectories, I'm back to pull down (+/- swoop).
Even then, however, I try to keep in mind your comment about Rajeff's accuracy stroke beginning with a subtle forward motion of his shoulder (which I consider translation although arguably it includes a rotation). I find regardless of distance adding some 'extra' translation invariably benefits both my accuracy and fly leg shape.

George

I agree George, the more work we do when the rod hand is behind the shoulder the less work we need to do when the rod hand moves in front of the shoulder. It is different from conventional casting technique but is the foundation of other sports' technique. As you increase line weights and rod stiffness what changes is the impact of our flexibility or lack of. We are naturally more flexible with in front of the shoulder hand speed and are relatively inflexible with our behind the shoulder range of movement. That often leads us to bend the rod arm elbow too soon in the stroke, whilst the hand is still behind the shoulder. Other sports' coaches spend a lot of time redressing that differential, it underpins the "release" mechanisms we have available to us. It goes a long way to make the 8-10 wt outfits feel like the 4-7 wt outfits, replacing the down/swoop movement with a pre-release, inclining hand path. It must also be said that strength is important in our ability to generate hand speed as the line weight and rod stiffness increases.
The rod both translates and rotates, and so does the body. We put a lot of focus on the rod, but IMHO, it is not the source of either casting accuracy or distance. I think Steve's accuracy stroke is best practice and the shoulder movement sets it up. His rod movement is both compact and controlled and his performances reflect his stroke length and direction. I don't focus on separating translation and rotation when discussing body movement range and sequencing because the rod tip translates when the rod only rotates.

Many will disagree and a few years ago I would have disagreed also.

John

[John Waters]

Hi John

Thanks for all the comments. Question, how would you describe the finish to the stroke you describe. It seems to me that the 170 finish may be later that what you might find with other sports. Do other sports have a stop at object release, baseball or javelin, followed by deceleration where the 170 power application comes much later and thru power application? I hope that makes sense.

In my fishing applications, I like to go thru the power application to where the rod is pointing at my target, yet, in distance casting I struggle with what feels like early application of power when using a longer follow thru.

Thank you John

Ps. would love to see where your stroke is now compared to other older videos I have seen.

Phil

Hi Phil,

No worries, I have one more lab study to complete in '24 and can hopefully publish the findings in '25. I think fly distance casting is a throwing action and hence, the biomechanical principles that apply to other throwing and hitting sports apply to casting. I want as much external shoulder rotation as I can get and when that moves into internal rotation I want my hand to move upward and forward on an inclining path. Elbow starts at shoulder height and finishes above shoulder height. The forearm fails over the elbow and upper arm just like a javelin thrower does. I don't think the 170 technique necessitates a later movement than what you see in javelin, baseball or serving a tennis ball. The release of the object thrown or object hit is a result of the acceleration of the rod side of the body paired with a braking of the non rod side of the body, not a conscious stop or block of the hand. That block is used in short line, accuracy casting but not in long line distance casting. If you watch other throwing or hitting sports, the power results from sequential proximal to distal acceleration and braking. The more you move to the distal sections the greater the impulse. A fly line is no different to a javelin or ball in respect of how hand speed is generated. The fly line does require modification to the hand path you see in some throwers, but that modification is minor. The best description of the finish of my stroke, or at least how I want my stroke to finish (a lot of work still to do for this 73 year old caster with too many bad casting habits) is the use of those plastic ball throwing launchers people use when throwing a ball as far as they can in a park whilst walking the dog. You want the ball to land as far as possible from you and your dog, when exercising the dog. Where are the elbow and hand at ball please point when you launch the ball? The question I have as a caster is how and why is that different from fly distance casting? You can flatten the trajectory of the ball just like you flatten the trajectory of a fly line loop, if need be. There is no conscious stop and the launcher acts as a rod, it just follows through post release.

Steve Rajeff uses a non stop delivery cast in his fly distance casting even though his false casting arc is approximately 10 to 2.

John

[John Waters]

Hi John

Thanks for all the comments. Question, how would you describe the finish to the stroke you describe. It seems to me that the 170 finish may be later that what you might find with other sports. Do other sports have a stop at object release, baseball or javelin, followed by deceleration where the 170 power application comes much later and thru power application? I hope that makes sense.

In my fishing applications, I like to go thru the power application to where the rod is pointing at my target, yet, in distance casting I struggle with what feels like early application of power when using a longer follow thru.

Thank you John

Ps. would love to see where your stroke is now compared to other older videos I have seen.

Phil

Hi Phil,

No worries, I have one more lab study to complete in '24 and can hopefully publish the findings in '25. I think fly distance casting is a throwing action and hence, the biomechanical principles that apply to other throwing and hitting sports apply to casting. I want as much external shoulder rotation as I can get and when that moves into internal rotation I want my hand to move upward and forward on an inclining path. Elbow starts at shoulder height and finishes above shoulder height. The forearm fails over the elbow and upper arm just like a javelin thrower does. I don't think the 170 technique necessitates a later movement than what you see in javelin, baseball or serving a tennis ball. The release of the object thrown or object hit is a result of the acceleration of the rod side of the body paired with a braking of the non rod side of the body, not a conscious stop or block of the hand. That block is used in short line, accuracy casting but not in long line distance casting. If you watch other throwing or hitting sports, the power results from sequential proximal to distal acceleration and braking. The more you move to the distal sections the greater the impulse. A fly line is no different to a javelin or ball in respect of how hand speed is generated. The fly line does require modification to the hand path you see in some throwers, but that modification is minor. The best description of the finish of my stroke, or at least how I want my stroke to finish (a lot of work still to do for this 73 year old caster with too many bad casting habits) is the use of those plastic ball throwing launchers people use when throwing a ball as far as they can in a park whilst walking the dog. You want the ball to land as far as possible from you and your dog, when exercising the dog. Where are the elbow and hand at ball please when you launch the ball? The question I have as a caster is how and why is that different from fly distance casting? You can flatten the trajectory of the ball just like you flatten the trajectory of a fly line loop, if need be. There is no conscious stop and the launcher acts as a rod, it just follows through post release.

Steve Rajeff uses a non stop delivery cast in his fly distance casting even though his false casting arc is approximately 10 to 2.

John

Sorry Phil,

"The forearm fails over the elbow and upper arm just like a javelin thrower does."

should be

The forearm flails over the elbow and upper arm just like a javelin thrower does.

It often does "fail" but less frequently now.

John

[Phil Blackmar]

Thank you John for the reply. If you look to the picture Paul posted in post #10. Does acceleration or force continue thru the arrows he positioned at the end of the stroke? Wouldn’t this be decelerating in a throwing or hitting motion?

Thank you John.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Phil, I don’t think that the primary objective of the casting stroke is to generate speed. I think that is the secondary objective. The primary one as I see it is to shape the loop.

An interesting experiment is to play with perceived force. Cast or carry at 100%, 90%, 80%, 70% force and so on. When considering carry, reducing the force will tighten the loop for a given carry length (because it reduces counterflex), as long as fast hauling is maintained, this tighter loop can open the door to a longer carry.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Thank you John for the reply. If you look to the picture Paul posted in post #10. Does acceleration or force continue thru the arrows he positioned at the end of the stroke? Wouldn’t this be decelerating in a throwing or hitting motion?

Thank you John.

I would say the rod is decelerating Phil, just as a racquet does after impact with the ball in a tennis serve.

John

[George C]

Hi Phil, I don’t think that the primary objective of the casting stroke is to generate speed. I think that is the secondary objective. The primary one as I see it is to shape the loop.
Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul
Thanks for that perspective. I needed it.

Taking the discussion away from distance can you offer some thoughts on the importance of translation for short stuff?
For instance, if I try to roll cast I get nowhere with rotation alone but the more translation I add the better I do, other faults aside.
Likewise, with close range low velocity accuracy I often get a rolling fly leg, probably due to faults in backcast line position and delivery power application. Consciously adding just a little body/shoulder translation at the start of delivery seems to eliminate the problem.

In both cases I get the sense that translation, by lengthening stroke length for any given casting arc helps get more of the flyline’s mass directed in the right direction. Is this correct?

George