Stop and SLP discussion

[VGB]

They measured the nominal deceleration rate by looking at the slope of the angular velocity curve after MAV and claimed that for a 50 foot accuracy cast the deceleration rate of an expert caster was several times larger than than the rate produced by beginning casters.

What was the population size Gordy and how did they score the accuracy? I was teaching an apprentice blacksmith that could stop a rod dead at any time in a cast but he couldn't hit a 50ft target if his life depended on it. It sounds like a meaningless test.

The reason that this is a meaningless task is down to the Power Law of Human Performance/ Practice which demonstrates states that the time it takes an individual to perform a given, simple task decreases as the number of times the individual practiced the task increases. It’s the reason that learning takes place over a period of time, provided that a suitable task with a defined performance/quality threshold is defined.

Vince

[VGB]

You can see her deceleration rate of -5500 deg/sec^2 is almost twice the value noted for expert casters in the Casting Analyzer manual.

I wonder who has practiced the accuracy tasks more, the “expert” casters or Maxine McCormick and who was the most accurate performer?

Vince

[VGB]

There are a number of interesting points to consider when designing trials and deriving conclusions involving human subjects because like the Laws of Motion, we also operate to 3 laws, these being the Practice, Fitts’s law, and Hick’s law. These laws specify relatively simple relationships between different variables related to movement learning and control.

I’ve already mentioned the Practice Law which will be easily relatable to anyone that has followed a deliberate practice programme, which should be most competition casters and instructors. Fitts Law formally describes the speed-accuracy trade off which again will be noticeable to anyone that practices a skill over a period of time. The last being Hicks Law is probably less familiar but has to do with decision times when multiple options are available. Imagine if you had to do an accuracy competition but the targets arrived like a whackamole game. Hicks Law would play out in the time to select a target.


Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

They measured the nominal deceleration rate by looking at the slope of the angular velocity curve after MAV and claimed that for a 50 foot accuracy cast the deceleration rate of an expert caster was several times larger than than the rate produced by beginning casters.

What was the population size Gordy and how did they score the accuracy? I was teaching an apprentice blacksmith that could stop a rod dead at any time in a cast but he couldn't hit a 50ft target if his life depended on it. It sounds like a meaningless test.

Hi Vince,
I would expect the expert caster to shape tight loops by hitting the desired line speed within a smaller arc. Higher level of force application both to accelerate and decelerate (stop) their rod should be the basement.
Not a meaningless test, but a proper logical finding to me. The CA and such results were a proper step in understanding further details to me.
Regards
Bernd

[Bernd Ziesche]

If you study the hand “stopping” closely, you don’t actually see a stop, instead what you often see is an acceleration!

Hi Paul,
In a fly cast we accelerate and we decelerate. Or like some prefer, we speed up and stop. Stopping is deceleration.
According to that your statement above, the stop is acceleration for you. What do you do to reduce speed though?
Regards
B

[VGB]

Hi Vince,
I would expect the expert caster to shape tight loops by hitting the desired line speed within a smaller arc. Higher level of force application both to accelerate and decelerate (stop) their rod should be the basement.
Not a meaningless test, but a proper logical finding to me. The CA and such results were a proper step in understanding further details to me.
Regards
Bernd

Hi Bernd

You do not need a CA to know that an expert in a movement performs a task more accurately than a novice, it’s a fundamental tenet of laws of movement learning and control. This is a finding that is sufficiently supported by evidence to form the basis of a scientific law,it would have been staggering if the opposite had been found.

Regards

Vince

[George C]

Thereafter it is adding unhelpful momentum away from the target.

I disagree that it's unhelpful: It's adding tension to the rod leg, which is helpful.

Cheers,
Graeme

Hi Graeme
Good point (although a complex one). I should have left "unhelpful" out.
Thanks for making me think.

With regards to stops do you or others consider these snaps to involve a stop?
I'd argue (from a weak position) that they do. The generation of momentum in one direction has been "stopped" or ended and shifted to another direction. I think that happens when we make a normal cast as well although obviously with much less momentum generated in another direction.

To push it to the point of absurdity, perhaps, I'm beginning to toy with the idea that a tailing loop is created by a "stop" of sorts.

[Walter]

I find many beginners have already tried self learning through books and/or social media so they are already well confused by the concept of the stop and slp. The first thing I do in those cases is to teach them to stop the stop. As the lesson progresses I then teach them to stop stopping the stop. It kind of like taking a plunger to your toilet when it gets stopped up.

[Graeme H]

With regards to stops do you or others consider these snaps to involve a stop?

Yes, I do George.

I'm afraid I'm a bit more simplistic than some of the contributors to this thread so far. For me, a stop is just the point when the rod tip stops moving in the direction of the cast, and perhaps begins moving away from that direction.

In more general terms, if I think I need to teach my student to "stop" (that's not always the case) and they are not grasping the point of "the rod tip should stop moving that direction" (or they are somehow unable to make that happen), my go-to lesson plan is to get them to lift the rod away from the cast. It's impossible to NOT stop the rod if it transitions from going forward to going backwards. At some point, it must no longer move forward, which constitutes a stop.

So, going back to the part of your question quoted above: Yes, the snap integrates a stop because the rod tip is no longer travelling in the direction of the cast.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Graeme H]

I find many beginners have already tried self learning through books and/or social media so they are already well confused by the concept of the stop and slp. The first thing I do in those cases is to teach them to stop the stop. As the lesson progresses I then teach them to stop stopping the stop. It kind of like taking a plunger to your toilet when it gets stopped up.

Please, make it stop ...