Stop and SLP discussion

[Paul Arden]

Would they use a six step teaching method, too?

I doubt it. But I don’t either. I’m happy to use three steps; position, pattern and power. At least with higher level casters. Beginners just need to connect loop shape to body movement, possibly with an awareness of rod tip path.

It’s quite possible to throw very nice loops with sub optimal body movement. Just because the loop looks nice doesn’t mean everything is hokey-cokey. With higher level casters how they utilise their body is the most important thing we teach IMO. The problem I have with the six steps is that it starts from the position of faults. Not unlike the Catholic Church.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Just because the loop looks nice doesn’t mean everything is hokey-cokey.

It really isn’t what it’s all about

[Paul Arden]

Of course. I can throw pretty loops using very tiring and even painful movement patterns. There comes a point where we need to build up using “form” first. I’m not worried too much about beginners in this regards. They have to figure out basic loop control and spend 30 or 40 hours doing this. If I’m not seeing an “ideal” pattern then that’s completely ok and to be expected. This development phase has to happen first.

But much later up the ladder I don’t care about loops. I care about form. My focus then becomes centred on body movement and loops come later. You can’t teach someone the 170 for example if they are focused on tight loops.

Nick Winkelman summed it up beautifully. At the core we are teaching movement.

Cheers! Paul

[VGB]

I haven’t taken anyone that far up the path yet Paul but I can follow the logic

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

Have you devised your lesson plan yet to replace the information source that is not available to the blind novice caster?

Hi Vince,
Yes, when exercising smooth force application/smooth acceleration I have offered many times to close the eyes and feel the smoothness. Yet the loops always remained fine for the time students did close their eyes. There was no loss of control that I could realize.
My brain works best with the information by one sense, when other senses are blocked or slowed.

The video you linked...those guys have clear disadvantages learning to run compared to me (I agree). Yet, they all would outrun me without their guidance. I'd eventually just have left the block when they arrive. Good example of what's possible. The guidance seems about total fine tuning and winning against other magnificent athletes. Put them next me on a treadmill and they all outrun me by a 100.
Fly casting for fishing however isn't anywhere near such extremes. It's about waving back and forth a stick. Feel is one proper learning instrument. In the video they say those athletes synchronize their steps to the guidance. I could not do that without watching. They obviiusly can by using other senses. Amazing achievments, but possible.
Cheers
B

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Paul,
My point was, that a baseball leving the hand has not tool inbetween like a fly rod. Thus 4 steps would be it, not 6...
Cheers
B

[Stoatstail50]

My brain works best with the information by one sense, when other senses are blocked or slowed.

I realise it’s your brain Bernd but most brains function with all the senses working together.

In the case of teaching using attention directed at visual cues it does not mean for one second that proprioception is turned off, blocked or slowed. In fact completing any motion, complex or otherwise, would be more or less impossible without it.

When the rod buyer boings the rod in the shop they use their sensory system to apply force at a particular rate to get a boing. Most of us can repeat this level of force again and again, we can vary it to get more boing or less boing too. The boing generates a sensation of resistance, also part of that system, and if the boinger likes the sensation…they buy the rod. I do this…I have no idea why…everyone does it.

However, the sensation is going to change when they boing the rod with 20’ of line on it or 40’ or 68’, so whatever boing force they used in the shop has to change to meet any changing objective. Reproducing the shop boing levels is no use any more and the sensations?, similar but different.

When we drill in a lesson, or cast when we fish, we use these sensations and force control systems automatically, they’re always there. What is it that causes the force control system to apply a little bit more or a little bit less? How do we know something has to change ?

[VGB]

You completely missed the point of the video Bernd. A 100m straight line sprint is a highly repetitive, low variability task. However the best unsighted sprinter in the world still needs assistance with it because his proprioceptive sense is not accurate enough for him to complete the task without significant errors. Without the continuous feedback of his guide, he would wander out of his lane.

You might close your eyes once you are casting and think you are doing everything by feel but you are starting from a known reference point. If you were blindfolded and I gave you a rod and you had no idea how much line you were starting with, the outcome would be a complete cluster. Compared to a 100m sprint, fly casting is a task that is subject to highly variable task and environmental effects.

My brain works best with the information by one sense, when other senses are blocked or slowed.

If that was true, evolution would have dumped the energy wasting baggage of the other sense.

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

My brain works best with the information by one sense, when other senses are blocked or slowed.

I realise it’s your brain Bernd but most brains function with all the senses working together.

Mark,
Ever heard of snipers closing one eye when going to pull the trigger and wearing ear covers? That's just one of many examples. It sure isn't just me.
May not be everyone either though...

The boing generates a sensation of resistance, also part of that system, and if the boinger likes the sensation…they buy the rod. I do this…I have no idea why…everyone does it.

Because you like what you FEEL. Can't be taste, hear, sight or smell!?

.Reproducing the shop boing levels is no use any more and the sensations?, similar but different.

What loops (by watching them) made me experience sensation, changed a lot over time, too. No different to me.

What is it that causes the force control system to apply a little bit more or a little bit less? How do we know something has to change ?

There is no one answer. Sometimes it's information we get by using one of our senses, sometimes by using more and sometimes again one, but another one. Highly variable. Though I agree sight is STRONG!
Still blind ppl. prove we may often leave out potential with using our other senses more.
Regards
Bernd

[Stoatstail50]

Because you like what you FEEL. Can't be taste, hear, sight or smell!?

Yes, absolutely.

The point being, still, that it is highly personal, totally subjective. I can't explain in any unambiguous, communicable way what it is that I "feel". This is true for everyone, it's objectively inexpressable, which makes "feel" very, very difficult to leverage for teaching, for me anyway. This is not to deny it's existence, in fact I rely on it because a caster uses it to monitor and control responses to sensory stimulae. That's because it's quite a large part of the nervous system.

There is a difference between coaching for max performance as an objective, where feely things could be leveraged, and teaching for max learning as an objective, where feely things are very difficult to leverage. I suppose, at the end of the day, that distinction is either accepted by individual instructors...or it isn't.