Hauling - pulling fly line through the guides

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

So... ?

If your aim is to "release early", as you might when casting a shooting head...

Do you release before full arm extension, or do you try to get to full extension sooner?

I'm not sure I can do the second.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Gary, both actually! Why would you put the brakes on? That’s more effort! So I’d build my fastest haul and then play with release timing.

How do you do it?

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Gary

Depends on what you mean with full arm extension. Most get there and continue to move the whole arm through the shoulder joint. After they have released..

At least I did


Cheers
Lasse

[gordonjudd]

in line with the rod I will pull 2 feet of line through the guides. If my haul is at right angles to the rod I will pull roughly .8 feet of line through the guides.

Walter,
I don't see how the pull angle relative to the butt effects the amount of line pulled through the guides.

In the video posted earlier of Gunter_Feuersdtein's opposite shoulder haul it appears to me that even though the pull angle was more than 90 degrees the stripper guide was going primarily in a +x direction while his haul hand was going in the opposite direction. That would result in a rapid increase in the distance between the stripper guide and the haul hand and thus result in a high haul speed.

If my hand is at the stripper guide and I pull it way 90 degrees from the butt alignment so that it two feet away from the guide then I have pulled two feet of line through the guides.

Same thing if the pull was along the butt. The distance between the stripper guide and the haul hand has increased by two feet in either case.

If the length of line remains constant doesn't the sum of the line from the haul hand to the stripper guide plus the length of line from the tip top to the fly have to stay the same?

The line length remaining the same is the premise for calculating the haul speed by taking the derivative of the distance between the stripper guide and haul hand. The angle between the butt of the rod and the haul hand does not enter into that calculation, only the distance.

Gordy

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Lasse,

Thanks for that video!

It appears that you are basing your release "timing" on rod shape. In one case ar RSP and the other "earlier" as in before RSP.

In both cases it looks like you release the line when your line hand is low and the arm is straight.

That would seem to mean that your hand gets to full extent quicker in the "earlier than RSP" release.

That is the scenario I was referring to in my post above, at arm straight but sooner, and what I think I would have trouble doing.

What I was playing with was hauling with the same speed, but in one case when my hand got down and back, and in the other case, releasing the line somewhere in the middle of the haul.

In both cases my hand travelled all the way down and back. It was when the line was released is what was different. I never said anything about putting on brakes.

Curiously, I think we both might have found the same thing? I think that when I released earlier i got better results because i was accelerating the line faster in the middle of the haul than at the end?

What was/is difficult for me is that I usually haul over the tip of my index finger. So the contact point is usually moving down and away. To release earlier I have to turn my hand over to a palm up orientation and hold the line between my finger and thumb. Then I can open my hand in the hauling stroke to release the line.

[Graeme H]

in line with the rod I will pull 2 feet of line through the guides. If my haul is at right angles to the rod I will pull roughly .8 feet of line through the guides.

Walter,
I don't see how the pull angle relative to the butt effects the amount of line pulled through the guides.
...
Gordy

Hi Gordy,

Perhaps this (metric) illustration of Walter's example might make it easier for you to grasp the concept we're talking about?

In Scenario B, the hand has moved 50 cm but only 18 cm of line was pulled through the guides.

In Scenario C, where the hand also moved 50 cm from its starting position, 50 cm of line was pulled though the guides.

The difference in the amount of line pulled through the guides is due to the direction the hand moved.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Walter]

…I usually haul over the tip of my index finger.

Also very triggy. I must try that.

[Lasse Karlsson]

Lasse,

Thanks for that video!

It appears that you are basing your release "timing" on rod shape. In one case ar RSP and the other "earlier" as in before RSP.

In both cases it looks like you release the line when your line hand is low and the arm is straight.

That would seem to mean that your hand gets to full extent quicker in the "earlier than RSP" release.

Hi Gary

If you open the clip, you will notice there's a thing in the middle of the frame, at the bottom. When I release the line, a red light comes on. Thats what I base my release on, I have a contact in my hand, you can see the cable going up my leg and under my shirt.

What I found out, playing with that contraption, made by Jim from SL, was that on slomo you can see that releasing at RSP or later means the line sticks to the rod and it won't shoot. I guess turning the rings out might help, but I havent played with it, as I get better results just releasing earlier than RSP. The clip is 12+ years old.

Yeah, hauling over the index finger, tries it, feels good but difficult to maintain for me. Also played around with over the thumb, and rotate the wrist at the end. When everything fits, it feels like it gives a bit. But too uneven to say for sure

Cheers
Lasse

[gordonjudd]

Perhaps this (metric) illustration of Walter's example might make it easier for you to grasp the concept we're talking about?

Graeme,
And what would the comparative values be if you started with the haul hand at the stripper guide?

Do you agree that the haul speed can be calculated by taking the derivative of the the distance (or displacement if you like) from the stripper guide to the haul hand as a function of time without any consideration of the pull angle?
Gordy

[gordonjudd]

Graeme,
I would agree that the circular haul hand path that most casters use in their haul does result in a narrow range of pull angles relative to the butt as the rod is being rotated.

That is not the case with the haul demonstrated by Gunter_Feuersdtein earlier in this thread however which indicates that there is more than one way to produced rapid changes in the distance between the stripper guide and the haul hand.

The pull angle on the back cast haul is generally much larger at the point of max haul speed as observed at the point of max haul speed in one of Henry Mattel's casts.

backcast_max_hual.jpg (64.23 KiB) Viewed 116 times

Gordy