Measuring the Haul

[Torsten]

Well really John, in #46 you have compared Johansson's technique which isn't backhand and casting sport related. You'd probably need to compare two backhand techniques, still I don't know why this is relevant for this topic.

[Walter]

Hi,

I have no idea why you guys want to compare two very different techniques for different purposes - apples to oranges. One being an off-shoulder cast for special fishing situations and the other a casting sport technique (5wt line / tarpon rod). Better continue this in the flycasting section.

Torsten,

I’m not sure why Gordy keeps bringing up the GF technique in this thread either. I think I’ve said all I have say about measuring the haul and trying to establish a little bit of formalism and definitions in order to move on to the topIc I started expressly for evaluating the haul. That would include comparing and contrasting techniques regardless of the purpose of the cast.

I was hoping that any further discussion in this particular thread would be around the definitions I put forward and how to measure the haul in order to gain concensus regarding evaluating the haul but this is Sexyloops and I’m just as surprised as you are that things haven’t gon that way.

If you prefer, feel free to move this topic and any other related ones I’ve started related to fly casting but if you decide to do that then please move all of them, not just this one.

WRT using multiple cameras that would be nice as would zebra lines but Gordy feels that with existing video he can get 90% or better accuracy. In the absence of anything better I’m okay with that.

[Paul Arden]

I have no idea why you guys want to compare two very different techniques for different purposes - apples to oranges. One being a off-shoulder cast for special fishing situations and the other a casting sport technique (5wt line / tarpon rod). Better continue this in the flycasting section.

I’m not sure I understand, Torsten. I use and teach exactly the same backcast and haul for long backhand shots and a 5WT distance backcast. Particularly in imaginary SW, as well as here in the jungle, the backcast I use comfortably opens up more angles with higher line speed and more accurate deliveries.

There are not many situations when I would use GF’s powerhaul in preference. I would need to be deep wading and facing some structure. A wall for example. That’s a rather exceptional situation.

Where do you see the advantages/differences?

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Gordy,
When I compare the GF PH with how I prefer to haul in that type of off shoulder cast:

My line hand positions are in an area, which costs me less energy. That way I can cast longer.
I prefer the thumb on top (instead of the index finger) to support positioning rod rotation further back in the bc, which makes the biggest difference between GF his and my technique.
I have more path for my line hand in the bc, which helps to avoid slip by moving my rod hand down when I start rotation!!!

Picture 2/3 show a position "line hand high", which lowers my energy level pretty fast. Nothing I want to use all day.
Picture 6-8 present the biggest disadvantage: Slip in a back cast that already is weak based on the rod hand arm limitations on the off shoulder side. How to avoid slip, when rotation brings the stripper guide automatically closer to the line hand and the line hand is kept high? The master of that style himself had quite slip here. Easily happens to me, too in that style.
Picture 8-10 shows the short distance to "speed up" the line hand. Not worth much.
The haul in the fc is better, but the angle of pull is very agressive causing increased friction and working against rod rotation.
If you really want to make it extra hard to position rod rotation further back in the bc, you take the index finger on top in my opinion. GF usually starts to rotate straight away in the bc.
All in all I hardly ever use the off shoulder cast in my fishing. I always find better solutions, especially on distance.
Regards
Bernd
P.s.: Sorry Torsten I agree you have made a fair and correct point.

[Walter]

Since we’re on the topic, I prefer to make off shoulder casts by keeping my rod hand overhead so I’m not body blocked.

[VGB]

Hi Bernd

What do you do if you are standing under a tree, is it the same?

Regards

Vince

[gordonjudd]

I’m not sure why Gordy keeps bringing up the GF technique in this thread either.

Walter,
Because his technique captures some of the stripper guide's speed contribution to the overall haul speed while an in-line haul direction where the haul hand is moving in line with the rod alignment on a forward cast does not.

When you calculate the haul speed as being the derivative of the distance between the stripper guide and the haul hand rather than coming up with an efficiency factor based only on distance ratios the advantage of his technique in producing higher haul speeds jumps out for me.

Gordy

[Walter]

I’m not sure why Gordy keeps bringing up the GF technique in this thread either.

Walter,
Because his technique captures some of the stripper guide's speed contribution to the overall haul speed while an in-line haul direction where the haul hand is moving in line with the rod alignment on a forward cast does not.

When you calculate the haul speed as being the derivative of the distance between the stripper guide and the haul hand rather than coming up with an efficiency factor based only on distance ratios the advantage of his technique in producing higher haul speeds jumps out for me.

Gordy

Gordy,


I would say that’s more about evaluating the haul than measuring it.

[VGB]

Because his technique captures some of the stripper guide's speed contribution to the overall haul speed while an in-line haul direction where the haul hand is moving in line with the rod alignment on a forward cast does not.

I don’t think that the stripper guide contributes anything to the haul, it’s just a convenient location to measure the output of the rod hand.

[John Waters]

Well really John, in #46 you have compared Johansson's technique which isn't backhand and casting sport related. You'd probably need to compare two backhand techniques, still I don't know why this is relevant for this topic.

Hi Torsten,

In post 46 and those preceding, I was responding to posts by others. Given the two off the shoulder cast techniques ( GF and a downward back haul) which of the two would you recommend a fly fisher student adopt as their standard?


John