The Board

Hi Gordy,
I agree with your fine post #29. Well put.
Just one point:
How much impact rotation to the stripper guide speed relative to the line hand position has, remains very individual down to the hauling style in my view.
I think, we agree in this though.
Hauling down the rod seems efficient to me, because I can keep my line hand on a lower level = much easier = safes energy. It feels great, because I feel less resistance both for the line hand working against friction as well and the rod totation. There can't be any doubt, that pulling in a 90 degree angle to the rod butt adds a force acting against rod rotation. How much that is, we can debate of course.
Some of the best looking casting I loved to watch still was Bart de Zwaan when hauling down the rod. He threw quite far that way. It always looked very relaxed and like small movements with a large outcome.
Tournament casting of course looks for the overall max possible. Different approach.

Paul, would love to hear, if you could cast further with the power haul. I cast shorter with it.
Regards
Bernd

I cast less distance the way Günter demonstrates.

One of my concerns about that haul against the guide is the timing of the haul relative to rotation of the rod.

Traditionally, we are aiming to build line speed outside the rod tip progressively throughout the cast. I've been working on the paradigm of "everything happens late" in the cast. That is, "late rotation, late haul."

This haul only works before rotation because after rotation has commenced, and progressively towards the end of rotation, it is not possible to haul against the guide. At the extreme, we MUST haul along the rod axis because the rod is pointing towards the target and our arm extends away from it. With this style, we've already done all we can achieve with a haul before rotation.

So this hauling style is promoting an early haul, one that happens before rotation. By utilising it, we lose the ability to add line speed at the end of the casting stroke.

Will it also promote a tailing loop because the haul finishes early? I don't know about that one.

Cheers,
Graeme

Paul Arden wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:07 pm I cast less distance the way Günter demonstrates.

Any thoughts about why?

So this hauling style is promoting an early haul, one that happens before rotation.

Graeme,
It appears to me he is still moving his haul hand away from the movement of the stripper guide after the rod has passed the vertical and is near the expected MAV point. Since the haul speed will be dominated by the stripper guide guide speed at that point I would expect his max haul speed would be produced near the MAV point. Merlin has said having max haul speed occurring at MAV will produce a higher line speed in his model so I would expect his effective haul timing is not too early.

Although it might be hard to do there is nothing to prevent his delaying the movement of his haul hand relative to when he rotates the rod. But I think that would only have a small effect on when the max haul speed is produced because the stripper guide's speed is probably 2 or 3 times larger than his haul hand speed.

Too bad we don't have a proper camera position that is compatible with making measurements of his actual haul speed timing relative to MAV.

Gordy

Graeme, it will not. Seems we are on the same page about that power haul. The missunderstanding Günter had, was that he believed hauling to big the big factor in line speed, not rod movement.

The misunderstanding Günter had, was that he believed hauling to big the big factor in line speed, not rod movement.

Bernd,
And I think that is the answer to your question about why we can cast longer distances with a standard rod hand movement that will produce higher angular velocity values than he produces with his off shoulder rod path.
Gordy

Not sure why we are discussing GF's cast. I have yet to see a video of it where he has worked out the biomechanical issues of the forward cast. Maybe it exists but I have not seen it.

I think this casting sequence (40.3 m indoors) by Johansson is far more useful for discussion purposes. I'm not going to comment on it (yet). I'll let others have a chance first.

gordonjudd wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 3:25 pm

HR Hebeisen (I think to remember in one of his videos) explained, that hauling down the rod is very efficient.

I have no idea what "efficient" might mean in that view, but hauling in line with the rod does not take advantage of the increased haul speed that is associated with the stripper guide speed.

Gordy,

I discussed efficiency and effectiveness in the first post of this thread. I also discussed the relationship between distance and speed for the haul. I realize that the choice of input and output is an arbitrary choice but I think it applies in this case. You are, of course, free to make your own choice but, if you do, it would be greatly appreciated if you state what definition you are using.

viewtopic.php?t=4140#p79636

Bernd Ziesche wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 3:17 pm

Paul Arden wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:07 pm I cast less distance the way Günter demonstrates.

Any thoughts about why?

Because I can move the hauling arm faster using alternative hauling patterns. My fastest hauls start from the chest.

Cheers, Paul