Tracking and Loop planes

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi everyone,
How do you define tracking and is it an essential in the majority of your fly casting to keep what you call proper tracking?
Or is it more like sometimes you aim for proper tracking and often not?
Thanks
Bernd

[Paul Arden]

Hi Bernd,

Straight Tracking for me is when the Casting Stroke is in one plane. That would generally put the loop in the same plane as the rod.

There are many times when we don’t want the loop in the same plane as the rod, and that would usualy involve curved tracking.

A good article here from the past:
https://www.sexyloops.com/articles/loopcontrol.shtml




Cheers, Paul

[Torsten]

Hi Paul,

I'm wondering if we can apply the adjective "straight" to a plane (?) how is this defined in English? Lines can be straight.

Line (aka straight line)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_(geometry)

Curve (aka curved line)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve

Plane (aka flat surface)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_(mathematics)

A surface can be curved
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface

Greetings,
Torsten

Straight Tracking for me is when the Casting Stroke is in one plane. That would generally put the loop in the same plane as the rod.

There are many times when we don’t want the loop in the same plane as the rod, and that would usualy involve curved tracking.

[Graeme H]

I'm not going to weigh in too much on this definition. The cast I posted this morning (the sideways rod with a vertical loop, see below) tracks well because the tip path is within a vertical plane. The fact that the rod tip occupied a plane that was not the same plane as the rod occupied makes the definitions involving rod planes a bit redundant.

Casting stroke and tip path do not need to be in the same plane to achieve straight tracking.

Therefore, we need to define what tracking actually is before we decide if it's proper or not.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Paul Arden]

Hi Torsten,

I agree. Maybe “flat” plane then?

Hi Graeme,

I think it’s possible to have straight tracking with a horizontal rod plane and an inverted loop. Ordinarily we curve the tracking for an off plane loop, at least to some extent.

For example if we want a vertical loop over the top of the rod, then the rod tip must normally track an upward dome. The reason we can get away with straight tracking and an inverted loop is because of gravity.

If conversely we want a horizontal loop with a close to vertical rod plane, then again we need to curve the tracking.

Many many uses for this stuff. I spend a whole class just talking about loop planes and rod planes.

Cheers, Paul

Edit: I can see you are throwing over the top, and also we can see that the rod tip curves in the vertical plane.

[Graeme H]

Edit: I can see you are throwing over the top, and also we can see that the rod tip curves in the vertical plane.

Yes, that's true.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Graeme,

So for me that’s a case of non straight tracking. If we consider tracking to be looking down the rod then the tip path curves. I think that applies to almost all off-plane loops.

It’s possible to position targets lesser/greater than 180 and/or use gravity to send a loop off-plane from the rod/casting plane, but by far the most common method is to curve tracking to change loop plane to whatever we want irrespective of casting plane.

It’s very important. It’s how we can throw overpowered curves close to vertical casting plane, amongst many other uses.

Cheers, Paul

[Graeme H]

I guess we're going to disagree on the definition of tracking then. That's not a problem though.

For me, tracking errors occur when the tip path is not straight away from and towards the target, as seen from above or from the target itself. I think that's the main consideration because the line follows the tip path. What the rest of the rod does is irrelevant under that definition.

Yes, there are some lateral variations in the cast (technically a tracking error), but please remember this started when Bernd proposed that a vertical loop with a horizontal rod was not possible. It clearly is, although I don't try to make it a perfect loop by doing some weird shit with my hand path.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Bernd Ziesche]

Straight Tracking for me is when the Casting Stroke is in one plane.

Hi Paul,
I assume you meant to say, when the rod is kept in the same plane during the casting stroke. That's same for me. Keep the rod in one plane only.

That would generally put the loop in the same plane as the rod.
There are many times when we don’t want the loop in the same plane as the rod, and that would usualy involve curved tracking.

I tend to believe, that we cast off vertical in 95% of our fishing. Since gravity pulls on the legs, I don't see why both legs would remain in the same plane. Just think of the crossed loops. Seen from bird's view and different angles I am sure the legs are mostly deviating compared to stay in rod plane.

If tracking is to keep the rod in plane (a plane is flat and not curved), curving the rod path means very poor tracking or no tracking at all.
Regards
Bernd

[Bernd Ziesche]

I agree. Maybe “flat” plane then?

Paul,
A flat plane is like a round ball. A ball is round and a plane is flat, always.


Hi Torsten,
thanks for those links. All clearly defined.

I think it’s possible to have straight tracking with a horizontal rod plane and an inverted loop. Ordinarily we curve the tracking for an off plane loop, at least to some extent.

I prefer to differ between proper and poor tracking (and everything in between). If you move the rod close to one plane, that's proper tracking.
If you move the rod along a curved path, that's poor tracking.
If you say to curve tracking, then tracking would be rod movement by definition, but no more in my understanding.

For example if we want a vertical loop over the top of the rod, then the rod tip must normally track an upward dome. The reason we can get away with straight tracking and an inverted loop is because of gravity.

If conversely we want a horizontal loop with a close to vertical rod plane, then again we need to curve the tracking.

Now that's exactly why I started this thread.

I agree, you can keep the rod in one plane (move it along a flat surface) in sidecasting and have gravity pull down the fly-leg, so it mainly passes below the tip. Just cast in low or medium line speed.

BUT the rod bends and thus counterflexes. During counterflex we rotate further (little bumps on the CA graphs). Thus tip position RSP1 to RSP2 differ. The tip at RSP2 is more to the inner side, when sidecasting. Main launch was even set before RSP1! The distance between main launch line and tip position in RSP2 will put the legs out of being both in a vertical plane.

Let's remember tip path as we mostly see it:

Grunde put even more deviation.

Now if we want the legs to be in a horizontal plane, while moving the rod in (nearly) vertical orientation we would have to override the impact by the distance between the lower tip in RSP2 (in my picture) and RSP3 (in Grunde's picture) compared to the main launch path of the first part of the line.

Graeme offered me a fine video as a Birthday gift this morning (because he didn't know I remain 49 for another year = not having Birthday this year), in which I see how strong he works to override the above impact of rod flex and rotation post RSP1. The cast doesn't look very smooth and the legs are out of being in the same vertical plane many times during the loop moving.
It is very difficult.

In my view: The longer the line + the wider the arc + the more rod bend, the harder it gets. In the Gebetsroither style I was often told, that the loop unrolls upside down. But I pointed that out being wrong many times. Short line it is possible. Medium line length the loop unrolls sideways usually. Long line and the fly-leg comes over the rod-leg mostly.
I prefer to say the line in the Gebersroither bc passes below the (pausing) rod tip. No more than that as a general "finger print" for that style.

Can we override the above impact to some significant degree? Yes, under some circumstances we can of course. But I believe many instructors yet may want more bird's view studies of the line movement to fully get the impact of main launch direction/orientation to tip position while pausing (or sometimes repositioning) and what this means to the loop plane compared to rod plane as well as direction of the unrolled line compared to main launch direction of the next cast.

Here is a picture, I (my cam) shot from a bridge:

And another one for a Switch cast:

And here is Tony demonstrating brilliant control:

Much less to override for the MPR:

Did I mention, that there is no straight in fly casting?
Regards
Bernd