Structuring multiple lessons

[Paul Arden]

Our caster has duck taped his rod butt to his forearm because he couldn’t afford the strap.

Are we cool with this?

No.

What about if he’s casting like that but without the duck tape?

[VGB]

Hi John

My point is that athletes in many sports produce enhanced performances over time and it is often the result of better technique, better coaching and better preparation, physical and mental........I use movement principles to deliver the novice's objectives.

For a recreational angler, can you describe what better performance means?

I use an over the shoulder stroke as the model technique and vary that according to the casting or angling objective.

Like many other instructors who work with variations of the triangle technique, I take them into the overhead, roll cast and roll cast pick up all based on external cueing for reasons that we have detailed on here many times.

"Fly Fishing Casting Long Distance and Techniques - Using Technique, the Double Haul & False Casting" by FlyFishDan.

Fly fish Dan is certified to instruct by the Hank Patterson school of fly casting, he is a figure of fun.

I have found the similar variability. Maybe I should ditch the concept of the kinetic chain model for fly casting? I think not.

If there is that much variability in a tightly constrained task under lab conditions. How much more variability do you think occurs in an angling task out in the wild? With a limit to a students cognitive capacity in a lesson should I prepare a student to deal with a highly variable task, instead focusing on a tightly bound set of internal cues? I think so.

regards

Vince

[VGB]

Let’s take a 40’ cast then. No obstructions. Our caster has duck taped his rod butt to his forearm because he couldn’t afford the strap.
His cast goes 40’. Are we cool with this? (He’s not a competition caster)

Why would you teach a highly variable task by restraining someone?

regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

Our caster has duck taped his rod butt to his forearm because he couldn’t afford the strap.

Are we cool with this?

No.

What about if he’s casting like that but without the duck tape?

It depends. Who is this person?, what can he do already?, what is he trying to improve? Is he freezing? Why does he believe he can’t control his wrist…what blithering idiot advised him to put a strap or tape on his arm ? can he swing a bag of potatoes around his head ?

Context determines how error tolerant you’re going to be.

[VGB]

What’s the relevance of 40ft?

[John Waters]

Hi John



Overgrown streams are not the only exception. Most rivers have trees and boulders, skiffs have a guy on a platform poling behind them. Many people fish up to their waist in water. There are a huge amount of constraints that drive varying solutions, otherwise we would only have to teach one cast. Would you use your competition accuracy techniques to teach someone with carpal tunnel syndrome?

Hi Vince,

Sorry missed that one. Overhead casting like the standard fly accuracy stroke is a casting model not a cast. There is a difference between a model of casting and a specific cast or particular environment. Bit like substance vs style isn't it?

Yes I would use the overhead model to teach someone with carpel tunnel syndrome. Which casting model do you use as your standard?

John

[John Waters]

We can respectfully agree to disagree on that view.

We could I suppose but if these statements are true then we don't disagree at all.

I would suggest all the high jumping coaches in Paris later this year would not teach the Fosby flop to cross a fence, but they all teach it to jumping athletes who want to improve their high jumping.

I'm sure thats true.

But are they relevant it it fits the capabilities and objectives of the caster?

Yes, of course.

I would agree with your Dad on carrying 80 feet of fly line if he only fished small streams. It would not suit any objective he had of improving his casting performance in his fishing environment and would be a waste of his time learning that task.

That's a heck of a lot of agreeing for someone who wants to agree to disagree

Hi Mark,

Sorry, but I admit to being a tad confused to what you disagree with.

"I don't see the distinctions between competition and angling casting technique, instruction and training/practice as being as dissimilar.
I know what it is you are driving at John but sadly I disagree, I think they are."

Is competition and angling technique, instruction and training similar or dissimilar?

After being asked more than two questions in a 48 hour period, delirium sets in.

John

[Stoatstail50]

It’s dissimilar.

[John Waters]

Hi John

My point is that athletes in many sports produce enhanced performances over time and it is often the result of better technique, better coaching and better preparation, physical and mental........I use movement principles to deliver the novice's objectives.

For a recreational angler, can you describe what better performance means?

I use an over the shoulder stroke as the model technique and vary that according to the casting or angling objective.

Like many other instructors who work with variations of the triangle technique, I take them into the overhead, roll cast and roll cast pick up all based on external cueing for reasons that we have detailed on here many times.

"Fly Fishing Casting Long Distance and Techniques - Using Technique, the Double Haul & False Casting" by FlyFishDan.

Fly fish Dan is certified to instruct by the Hank Patterson school of fly casting, he is a figure of fun.

I have found the similar variability. Maybe I should ditch the concept of the kinetic chain model for fly casting? I think not.

If there is that much variability in a tightly constrained task under lab conditions. How much more variability do you think occurs in an angling task out in the wild? With a limit to a students cognitive capacity in a lesson should I prepare a student to deal with a highly variable task, instead focusing on a tightly bound set of internal cues? I think so.

regards

Vince

Hi Vince,

"For a recreational angler, can you describe what better performance means?"

No, can you? You have used the singular in your question. I cannot answer for an individual recreational angler unless I asked him/her. However, for the general community of recreational anglers, I presume many would relate better performance to having more fish take the fly in a day. That is how I equate better performance when I am fishing and I think it would be the most common definition for anglers in Australia. How do you describe "better performance" for recreational anglers in the UK?

"Like many other instructors who work with variations of the triangle technique, I take them into the overhead, roll cast and roll cast pick up all based on external cueing for reasons that we have detailed on here many times".

I introduce overhead and roll casting models based on the individual's objectives and movement principles rather than external cueing. I use cueing to reinforce both the performance and learning of those model movements. Methinks we've done that to death, don't you.

"Fly fish Dan is certified to instruct by the Hank Patterson school of fly casting, he is a figure of fun”

You asked me to provide you with an example of arm-centric teaching in post 117. I am very aware of the importance you place on vision in teaching so I thought I’d provide a video. You describe Dan as a “figure of fun”. I would suggest anyone searching the web for instruction may not have your insights into the details of Dan’s curriculum vitae. How about Fly Casting 101 by Jeff Wagner? How do you equate the contribution of Jeff’s hips and shoulders compared to his arm movement to line speed? He defines distance casting as “whatever is longer for you” so that covers quite a range of recreational fishing distances. Good definition.

"If there is that much variability in a tightly constrained task under lab conditions.”

Yes, because it is not tightly constrained.

"How much more variability do you think occurs in an angling task out in the wild?”

A lot but that does not impact the that reflects the casting model’s applicability and in this case it is highly applicable.

"With a limit to a students cognitive capacity in a lesson should I prepare a student to deal with a highly variable task, instead focusing on a tightly bound set of internal cues? I think so.’

What specifically are the “tightly bound set of internal cues” you refer to? We are all guilty of throwing these generalisations about without clarification. Maybe that's both a constraint of forums or reflective of our cognitive capacity. It is the latter with me. I assume the “what” you teach and “how" you teach it would account for variability of application. I do.

John

[John Waters]

It’s dissimilar.

How and why?

John