Structuring multiple lessons

[VGB]

Hi Paul

Nice analogy. I try to go the other way completely with many intermediate students, who are having their casting advancement restricted by this poor teaching.

Have you tried getting them doing leader only dry fly casts with about 20ft of leader and a very short line?

Hi Rickard

We still have a library of books over here

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Is the cue "hold a book tucked under the arm" still alive?

One day when I was doing 170 distance on the field someone walked by and told me that I was "too wide/bushy" and should be able to keep a book tucked between my upper body and arm. That would be an interesting constraint in trout distance.

You should have asked him to show you!!

Hi Vince, yep the drill starts leader only for that reason!

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

I’d be interested to hear what Mark thinks about this?

It baffles me too why anyone would want to teach someone to cast with a fixed wrist. It's not very useful but I suppose it's at least being done on purpose.

This makes it slightly different to the kinds of isolating behaviour we see with freezing because most experienced casters with this learned habit are compensating elsewhere in the body to kinda manage the loop. Dealing with freezing requires a degree of patience on the part of the instructor, there are definitely drills that promote the thaw but it's as much a matter of time as it is changing task perameters or objectives. With reasonably experienced casters with a purposely frozen wrist however, it doesn't usually take so long before they discover that it's not a very adaptable solution and we can go from there.

I think disrupting pre-existing habits is the hardest thing we do. As far as I know there are only two in lesson techniques for this, error amplification and old way, new way. In some cases this is extreme contrast, probably why your speys work. Sometimes, it's as simple as practicing late rotation in Roll Cast pick ups because it's a very easy concept to immediately transfer into false casts. Carrying a relatively short line while walking is great for forcing stroke variability but you have to be prepared to watch everything go to s**t for a few minutes before it settles in to a more fluid stroke. This is true for any of the drills designed to interfere with habituated behaviour...it can be fun or it can get very shouty, sometimes both.

[VGB]

Hi Vince, yep the drill starts leader only for that reason!

How long is the leader Paul?

[Paul Arden]

Hi Mark,

Agree with all. Great post. It’s definitely a big spanner in the works to reintroduce the movement of a joint that has been frozen for considerable time. I had a guest here over Xmas who had cast that way for over 20 years.

That’s not going to be a quick fix. Under pressure of a shot suddenly appearing 3-4 times/day, any new stroke is going to go out the window. Only option is to try to put the boat closer to the fish with all the risks that entails.

Long term it’s possible to change and ingrain a new stroke. Not in 4 days however. Maybe 4 months.

It’s not always how we teach but also what we teach! It a major problem because you can get someone through the exam requirements using it, which then reinforces it as a teaching method and causes problems further down the line. That’s an example of someone’s “quick fix” causing long term problems and a lot of work to put right in the future.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Hi Vince, yep the drill starts leader only for that reason!

How long is the leader Paul?

That’s a good question, Vince, and obviously the longer the better for this. I haven’t changed the leader for this specific drill however because the same thing still applies when using short lengths of fly line. A longer leader would certainly enhance it.

I do ask students further up the ladder to false cast weighted flies with 20’ leaders and no flyline. Working on just having the fly “hang” straight both back and forward. I also use this for developing Torque Twist too, partly because that’s how the movement initially developed for me when casting an enormous cicada on a 20’ leader.

Leader length and taper is a very interesting topic in itself. We certainly need to discuss this.

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

It a major problem because you can get someone through the exam requirements using it, which then reinforces it as a teaching method and causes problems further down the line. That’s an example of someone’s “quick fix” causing long term problems and a lot of work to put right in the future.

Yes, but you're not putting anything "right"...this was an acceptable solution for a specific set of largely invariant task requirements. That acceptable solution isn't wrong it's just not going to work for sets of more highly variable task requirements meaning that the caster has to learn a new skill. This may be the capacity to vary behaviour to meet those changing conditions or, for exam purposes, learning another new, but largely invariant, solution.

I've read your comments on competition casting on the visualisation thread and I'm afraid I can't agree that this is an open loop process as far as I understand open/closed loops to mean anyway. Just because there is reactivity to the wind in performance does not mean this is an open loop process. Yes there is environmental interference but once you're up on that platform this is essentially just Bernsteins "repetition without repetition" ...boshing at the anvil. and this is equally true of the tasks in an assessment. Even recreational casting probably sits closer to closed loop systems because we use recognisable repeating patterns, named casts, and feedback to meet the changes in environmental circumstances. These are the generalised motor patterns we have discussed elsewhere. As a consequence I don't think this is a distinction which matters much because, when were talking about introducing variability for teaching purposes, it is quite different to when we're thinking, or not thinking usually, about reactive micro variations in performance of a PULD at 40' a 170 casting stroke or a single spey.

We can use variability in different contexts to meet two quite different objectives. My personal philosophy has been to make sure that any caster starting out learns to vary their casting right from the beginning rather than waiting until they can perform the ideal cast and then learning to vary afterwards. This, to me, means being highly error tolerant in the early stages which is backwards to an orthodox "see fault - fix it" approach. In fact I think we can use these "faults" to promote adaptability which is why I take some comfort in that stiff wrist being held like that deliberately.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Mark,

That’s my approach too nowadays, certainly with beginners. It might not come across that way because many of my students come in at a more advanced level and with them I often go Blocked, Serial and Finally Random. The reason for this is because at that level I am prioritising development of body movement over loop, as opposed to the other way around, and it’s more difficult to do that if every cast is vastly different.

To my mind if we are wanting to make use of the kinetic chain at this more advanced level, which I am, then that for me would be a “right” way. One doesn’t have to do this and most people don’t, but when I analyse looking at Pattern (and to an extent also Position and Power application) then I am putting on my kinetic-chain x-Ray specs. And then trying to find ways to move the student towards this.

I know it’s not the case for everyone, but for me that would be the “right” way to cast. Everyone ultimately improves as a result of this transition. But, and it’s a big but, I don’t think this is the best starting point for a new caster who has other (control) skills to develop first.

Freezing the wrist takes you a step further away from the kinetic chain. Which is why it’s more difficult to teach and learn later on. One step forwards, two steps backwards.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Hi Paul

To my mind if we are wanting to make use of the kinetic chain at this more advanced level, which I am, then that for me would be a “right” way. One doesn’t have to do this and most people don’t, but when I analyse looking at Pattern (and to an extent also Position and Power application) then I am putting on my kinetic-chain x-Ray specs. And then trying to find ways to move the student towards this.

As ever it is down to objectives. If your objective is to achieve maximal acceleration and the largest possible speed at the end of the linked segments of the kinetic chain then you are going the right way. Personally, I have never given a lesson where that is the objective.

I would coach the use of the kinetic chain to reduce the possibility of injury but the “right” way doesn’t work if I’m sat on a rock in the middle of a stream like a happy little Buddha, it has to be modified to the objective and the solution may be arm centric.

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

I do ask students further up the ladder to false cast weighted flies with 20’ leaders and no flyline.

Trying this with a piece of fluff on the end instead of a weighted fly will unlock the wrist

Regards

Vince