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First distance casting practice

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Paul Arden
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Re: First distance casting practice

#31

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:49 pm

SA got the box wrong! Certainly the only difference apart from colour between them is the length of running line.

With the 5MED my elbow path is this by the way. But I’m intentionally angling the backcast low.
A1703236-38D5-4615-9E28-15B2953C6CA8.jpeg
A1703236-38D5-4615-9E28-15B2953C6CA8.jpeg (53.53 KiB) Viewed 309 times
That is from this video (and only approximate)

[media] [/media]

However that’s 170/long carry. With a compact/blocked style distance stroke I would expect it to be more like John’s triangle.

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: First distance casting practice

#32

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:58 pm

James9118 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:46 am
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:15 pm

Only difference between orange and green MED besides colour, is the orange has a longer runningline, tapers are the same.

Cheers
Lasse
Hi Lasse,

The confusion arises from what's printed on the back of the MED box - look at the head lengths:
MED taper.jpg
:D they had that on their website once too, lead to some fun discussions with people.... :p

What a blunder :whistle:

Cheers
Lasse
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Re: First distance casting practice

#33

Post by GoldenDorado » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:00 pm

Dear John, what a pleasure and honour to receive your corrections and explanations. I'll focus then on not twisting my forearm and using the inddx knuckle on top grip, also in hauling in the wrist rotation (by the way, I'm strengthening my forearm muscles with a 2 kg dumbell). I've seen an excellent video where you explain distance casting, where the sequence is elbow-forearm-wrist-block and drift; I think it is the compact style that Paul mentions above, as opposed to the170 style I am trying.
I'll also try that style (quite similar to the one I use for fishing distance casting) but I think it is reserved to big guys, am I right.? I'm 1,73 mt tall and weigh 71 kg.... Also I'l try to follow an ascending path of the elbow, both in bc and fc.
Again thanks a lot.
Cheers, Sebastián.

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Re: First distance casting practice

#34

Post by John Waters » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:06 am

Hi Gary,

My sketch is definitely not to scale, and acknowledging my abject lack of drawing skill, the caster is casting from right to left. We talk a lot about backcast drift but that discussion is mainly about repositioning in a horizontal plane. The adjustment move I have referred to is just drift or repositioning but on the forward cast and primarily vertical. The adjustment can be quite small with little variation between the backcast trajectory and the forward cast trajectory and my drawing just represents direction and angles, not the length of travel.
Your comment about the thoughts of a few US casters is reflected in what you see in some videos on the American Casting Association website. The forward adjustment is not large but visible. I agree with your observation, the length of each leg of the triangle can be varied and is based on the elbow movement in other throwing sports. The ADJ leg of the triangle is a pre backcast move and occurs whilst the forward cast is unrolling. It does not incur a power move, just repositioning.

John

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Re: First distance casting practice

#35

Post by John Waters » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:08 am

Hi Paul,

After reading the excellent and extensive discussions on the 170 style on Sexyloops and observing the best at Cumbria perform in very difficult conditions, I have spent the last two years experimenting with the technique, I am a total convert to that technique for the 5 weight MED. What the 170 technique offers on long line carry lengths of 85 feet plus is that it places the hand and elbow in the best position for throwing, that classic throwing body shape of a backward "C". You made the comment some time ago that the blocked, short arc technique is not conducive to achieving the longest casts possible the Trout Distance event and that comment resonated loudly with me and drove the change to my Trout Distance action. On my forward cast, I use my elbow to drive my hand path and elevate it above my shoulder from a below the shoulder start point and track it on a as straight a line forward as possible.I used to push up with my casting hand on the forward stroke, as per the term - push your hand into the rod bend, but I don't do that now. Rather, I think a straight but inclining hand path is the better option. Our rod hand ends at the same place on our backcasts, and therefore, starts from the same place for the forward cast but I have my elbow move on an incline trajectory on the backcast rather than a level line. In my opinion, For the forward cast, the focus is on the elbow path because that drives the amount of angular motion of the forearm, prior to the forearm reaching the vertical. In my mind that is the key driver to hand speed. After that vertical position, the rod hand is starting to slow down and all the action then transfers to the haul hand. If that slow down did not occur, the elbow would be injured. For the backcast, I also think that elbow and forearm movement drives the 170 technique. Most of the backcast acceleration is sourced to the backward forearm flailing action and I believe that can be increased by an inclined elbow path prior to the end of the forearm rotation and before the downward rotation of the wrist. The incline on the back is lower than the front. For me, the benefits of an inclining movement line of the elbow on the forward cast are equally relevant to the 170 backcast, so I use an inclining elbow path on the backcast, prior to the forearm rotating past the vertical, the wrist opening and the rod tip ending just above the ground.
I think it works, but need to work much harder on my understanding of throwing technique. The Trout Distance continues to be a source of both intrigue and enjoyment for me. That carry length challenge provides a unique exploratory journey for me.
It would be great if we were all able to get together for a discussion and it is a pity your plans for such had to be put on hold this year. Hopefully we can have some casting next year.

All food for thought,

John

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Re: First distance casting practice

#36

Post by John Waters » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:47 am

Hi Sebastian,

There are many people on this Forum, and others outside Sexyloops, from whom I have learnt what little I know about casting. All are willing to help so engage with everyone you can. You never know, the next person with whom you engage may be the one who hits the mark with your technique. You are building from a solid base, well done.

I remember that video, Paul and yourself are correct, it is certainly based on a compact technique but I suggest the movement and orientation of the inside of the forearm on the backcast illustrates my earlier comments on forearm twist. Both the 170 and the short stroke techniques are not strength dependent. There are some great casters using either, or both, techniques, all of whom cover the whole range of height, weight and age. The choice is more dependent on the length of line carry than on any other factor. The 170 technique is the best for the Trout Distance because of the length of line carry needed to beat the best. You can use a short stroke with an 5 weight MED but not at 90 feet of carry. I would say the opposite for the Sea Trout shooting head event, so it is horses for courses. It is only technique that counts and that all comes down to how you move your body to optimise the cumulative speed through each body segment ending in both the rod hand and haul hand.

As with everyone here, happy to help.

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: First distance casting practice

#37

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:39 pm

Good posts there John. My backcast elbow angle with the 170 is usually declining. The only exception to this is a headwind. Sometimes/often on the backcast I think and teach to point the elbow at the target.

My forward cast varies according to how I’ve rebuilt the stroke. One of the most fascinating experiments I’ve regularly done is to cast from a great height. For years I used to park my truck on the side of a cliff and throw over the edge standing on the roof. With this sort of height advantage it’s easy to make small force adjustments on a long carry. Every little change affects the shape of the loop. I do this a little at the moment from the roof of my boat but the shape of the roof makes it challenging not to fall in :D

I hope we can all meet up next summer. It’s been an interesting year this one. And not in a very good way!

Cheers, Paul
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Re: First distance casting practice

#38

Post by John Waters » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:05 am

"There are many people on this Forum, and others outside Sexyloops, from whom I have learnt what little I know about casting."

Now, that did not exactly say what I meant. You know what I mean, I hope.

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: First distance casting practice

#39

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:32 am

:D :D
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