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Hand Speed

Mangrove Cuckoo
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:51 am

Re: Hand Speed

#11

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:49 pm

John,

You will admit that the football pass is closer to what we do than a baseball pitch though, no?

Also, no running like in javelin... Just feet on the ground, weight shift, torso and shoulder rotation, etc...

(Although, I have seen some "tournament" casters starting to look like they want to add that sprint, but are limited to a step or two... but I am more interested in the mechanics of a "normal" fly cast).

I forget the term used, but I was particularly interested in the disjuction between the hips and shoulders. The hips lead, the shoulders lag, which allows for some torsional "wind up". It reminded me of something peculiar I noticed in Steve Rajeff's distance cast.

And, of course, the football pass has more shoulder rotation... it is a much heavier object, but does that mean the same basic movements cannot be used, just abbreviated (braked?) and held within the linear component?

Also, I'm not sure which video you watched, but did you hear the emphasis of keeping the off hand (in our case the line hand) in front of their face? They specifically say that swinging the off hand around and extending the arm (much like our extension of the haul) is poor form as it slows rotation? You want to keep the elbows close to the center of rotation, like when an ice skater is spinning.

I tried something similar when casting and was surprised how well is works.

For sure John, you know *much* more about casting mechanics... I don't even compete, but are not some of these ideas parallel and useful? All these things have to be done with a human body.
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

John Waters
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Re: Hand Speed

#12

Post by John Waters » Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:25 am

Hi Mangrove,

I apologise if I gave the impression that casters could not learn from the points raised by yourself, the reference to Brady and the analysis of his stroke. I have highlighted many of those positives in the thread titled Tracking..tracking..tracking in the Flycasting Section. In that section, I made reference to winding up and unwinding, rotation vs. translation, progressive accumulation of body segment speed to build hand speed, hand line path relative to shoulder and elbow, hand centric vs body centric technique and the drivers of each, additional forearm rotation, body segment acceleration and braking/blocking, impact on straight line path of the hand and a number of other aspects of throwing/casting. I did not think it relevant to reiterate all that stuff on this thread, but I apologise if I gave the impression that I was a tad dismissive of football passing technique. On the contrary , if you read my other posts about casting and baseball pitching in the Tracking.. thread, you will see I noted many similarities between baseball and casting up to the hand passing the shoulder, and I would also make the same observations with US football passing movements behind and adjacent to the shoulder. Rather than repeat all that, I thought I would just list my thoughts on what is different about what I had seen with US football passing and casting. Obviously some aspects of US football passing is very relevant to casting, but others not so, as is also the case with baseball, cricket, javelin and discuss. Discuss technique is a very interesting study and in my opinion can be very instructive for casting. My point is that we should examine them all and use what is relevant. If you are an arm centric caster you will absorb different aspects of other sport techniques into your casting than if you use a different technique.

In my opinion, I do not agree that US football passing is more relevant to casting than baseball, rather, both are relevant and instructive, because of what happens behind and adjacent to the shoulder. I believe baseball pitching has greater emphasis on braking/blocking as well as feet placement and separation, than US football passing has, but when you consider that football is a collision sport, I think that is perfectly understandable. You are correct about casting not having running as in javelin, we focus on body weight transfer and arm action, but therein lies the learning potential for casting.

I too am interested in the mechanics of the "normal" fly cast and other sports can provide so much information about how best to perform it. The movement of hips, shoulders elbow and arm are critical and I have made reference to the segment lag giving rise to torso twist or wind up in previous posts. All important, but I stress each of them needs to be differentiated into two segments, i.e behind the shoulder and in front of the shoulder. That differentiation, in my opinion, is essential. Your reference to Steve Rajeff is absolutely correct, there is a Youtube video by Steve talking about sequential and accumulative movement.

To me the important takeout is that Steve employs the same building blocks of technique in both his accuracy and distance casts.

We can learn from all sports but one left-field proposal that I would suggest is a very instructive sport relevant to casting, is archery and the bow used.

As I said many times, all rod translation is sourced to body rotation. Casting has always been, and until we get robotic rods, will always be, about body movement, that is the singular essential of casting.

"And, of course, the football pass has more shoulder rotation... it is a much heavier object, but does that mean the same basic movements cannot be used, just abbreviated (braked?) and held within the linear component?"

I suggest the weight of the football is not a factor in the amount of shoulder rotation used. I think that is accommodated by the bent arm position before the throw. which supports that heavier weight. The heavier the weight thrown, the greater the angle between forearm and upper arm at the start of the throw. As I have said in the other thread, the same basic movement can be used behind and adjacent to the shoulder because in casting the in-front-of-the-shoulder rod hand path must be linear, not slung across and down. A video of Brady's throw will show a bent left leg and that to me is the major point of difference.

"Also, I'm not sure which video you watched, but did you hear the emphasis of keeping the off hand (in our case the line hand) in front of their face? They specifically say that swinging the off hand around and extending the arm (much like our extension of the haul) is poor form as it slows rotation? You want to keep the elbows close to the center of rotation, like when an ice skater is spinning."

Excellent point. The most instructive aspect I take from US football passing is the positioning and movement of the non throwing hand and the relevance to hauling. I have always advocated that the haul should be as close to the plane of the rod as possible. I had this debate on a casting Facebook page only a few weeks ago where an old video of my thoughts on arm centric fly distance casting was critiqued. As we agree, some aspects of US football passing is instructive for casting, but the caveat I would add it is limited to behind the shoulder and is most beneficial with an accelerated/braking casting movement.

I am not surprised with your statement "I tried something similar when casting and was surprised how well is works" because I have done the same thing.

"For sure John, you know *much* more about casting mechanics... I don't even compete, but are not some of these ideas parallel and useful? All these things have to be done with a human body."

Not sure about that statement. Like you and everyone, I am very much a student of casting and most definitely do not "know" more than anyone else. I suggest that we all compete, some of us against others, but we all compete against ourselves every time we pick up a rod. That quest to improve is the reason we all stay engaged in fishing/casting, even if that is measured by just having more fun than we had the last time we held a rod.

The maths rings the bell for me. I want to better understand casting hand speed because the maths shows the potential and should drive the analysis. Every movement based information source is relevant, irrespective of the sport it was designed for.

John

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Merlin
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Re: Hand Speed

#13

Post by Merlin » Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:31 pm

The PUALD contest is very interesting in terms of casting motion. I think I could identify a few typical ones:

* mainly a trunk twist: Graeme
* mainly a weight shift: Tracy
* a trunk twist with a "half step" (shifting the weight from forward leg to backward leg and vice versa): Michal and Bart
* a trunk twist with a "full step", walking back then forth: Lasse, Nicholas, Zhongxiang

This last configuration has some similarities with javelin throw and may represent the "best" option if perfectly tuned. Stepping should go along with a stop of hips to allow a momentum transfer from the lower body to the upper body. The trunk twist, if tracking can be ensured, can add speed and weight shifting as well, adding horizontal speed. A rather "explosive" acceleration should help (from nearly zero to peak). A question of balance between speed and not too brutal force. Easy to say, difficult to make.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

John Waters
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Re: Hand Speed

#14

Post by John Waters » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:50 am

Hi Daniel,

Good post, like your term "explosive", it is both descriptive and apt when describing fly distance possibilities. I can't wait to see the distances achieved when a caster doubles their hand speed.

John

ROF
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Re: Hand Speed

#15

Post by ROF » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:00 pm

John, I was thinking about the handspeed and my traces..... with casting as with a cricket bowler, the rotational speed is the dominant factor compared to translational hand speed. This specific software version of Maxtraq measures only two dimensional. Rotation is achieved by upper body, shoulder, upper arm, fore arm and elbow....and the wrist action. The rotational speed added by the wrist was not accounted for in my traces. The video resolution is to low. Ball speeds of around 45m/s seems to the human limit. Even with the mechanical advantage of a fly rod , rod tip speeds of around 25m/s were reported.... roughly javelin speed?... I think casters should step up their game 😉

John Waters
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Re: Hand Speed

#16

Post by John Waters » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:28 pm

Thanks Leslie, appreciate your interest and your help. You are correct in your bowling speed comment, great fast bowlers like Dale Styne and Alan Donald achieved that level of perfection. The one I use as an example of what is possible with rotational speed is Jeff Thompson who for me, personified "explosive" speed. You are right about the upper limit of speed, the key is to separate the speed generated in the pre-delivery phase from that generated in the delivery phase of any action. Therein lies the potential for casting and as you have described, it is based in rotational, not linear or translational accumulation.

Thanks again,

John

Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Hand Speed

#17

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:49 pm

John Waters wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:28 pm
Therein lies the potential for casting and as you have described, it is based in rotational, not linear or translational accumulation.
Is that always true?

I remember watching a video of a guy casting in a competition a few years back. He stood out first off because he looked like he was around 7 feet tall! But, other than that, his cast was not as much about rotation as it was on his ability to move the rod such a long distance linearly... and that he threw incredibly tight and pointed loops. The latter I assumed was because of his translational instead of rotational cast.

Does anyone know who I am referring to? He was not a US caster. If so, I think his video could be searched... I think it was here on SL.
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

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Paul Arden
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Re: Hand Speed

#18

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:44 am

That sounds like Tor the Giant who won gold a few years ago in Norway?
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

John Waters
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Re: Hand Speed

#19

Post by John Waters » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:52 am

Hi Mangrove,

If you want optimal distance, yes. The justification for that statement is based on the science upon which any throwing sport, which has distance as the objective, has developed. Even with a run up or translation phase, that segment of the action only delivers a speed of approximately 7 ms. The rotational launch segment achieves 25 plus ms. and in some sports, that is generated in a one step movement.

We don't throw the rod in fly casting but that is immaterial and irrelevant in any comparative analysis of both technique and deliverables.

John

George C
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Re: Hand Speed

#20

Post by George C » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:40 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:44 am
That sounds like Tor the Giant who won gold a few years ago in Norway?
Around 2:20 in this video for those curious to see him.

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