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Tension Discontinuity /DN

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Paul Arden
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Re: Tension Discontinuity /DN

#31

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:42 pm

I actually bought the bits for a battleship string shooter today. Well to be fair I just needed a variable resistor, and I was in buying some switches at the time :) Any bets on a) how long it takes me to get around to actually putting it together b) if I can make a circular nose loop and c) if it indeed works at all? :p

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Tension Discontinuity /DN

#32

Post by Torsten » Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:11 pm

In my opinion, the simple 1-D model with the semicircular front is not suited for describing morphing or pointed loops like shown in Pauls picture. The reason are some model assumptions, like the straight legs or the semicircular shape, the line is not constrained to such a shape, even not if you're considering a moving frame of reference. I could imagine that the slight inconsistencies at the point are related to drag forces and also the bending stiffness of the line. Sure, you can assign angular momentum even to points moving along a straight line, but it's mostly used to describe rotating rigid bodies. It's just one property, you can apply other formalisms like Euler-Lagrange as well.

Torsten.

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Re: Tension Discontinuity /DN

#33

Post by Phil Blackmar » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:54 am

Hello-

I’m way out of my league here, but, I have an observation. When I first read the title “Tension Discontinuity”, my initial assumption was this was about the Rod exerting force on the line creating the “feel” of tension or resistance. I further assumed the object was to describe in a good”cast how the feel of tension increases or at least remains constant until the line is released. One challenge for distance casting is to feel a consistent increase in resistance until line release despite carrying more line and increased effort to make the longer cast. The “poor” cast then takes place when there is a discontinuity in tension prior to release.

Thanks
Phil

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Re: Tension Discontinuity /DN

#34

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:03 am

Different discussion, but I agree Phil. At a fly casting starter level I think the analogy of throwing a potato off the rod tip is a good one – or in your case a small grapefruit. Later on I like to talk about really feeling for the line during the stroke, both with the rod first and then later the line hand. There are lots of drills for this, but my favourite is max carry drill from an elevated position. Others would be laying the line down between strokes. Another would be short to long – a lot of casting problems can be fixed by going back to short line lengths and even casting without the line.

I’m still around :p I’m supposed to be in another jungle but we would have been washed out. So I’m going fishing while waiting to fish! I also intend to do some serous casting.

Incidentally I don’t know if you’ve explored Drift? I have a regular Zoom student who reminds me of you. Learning to Drift between strokes has really helped with his line control and he’s discovered much more time than he thought he had. He was actually throwing tendency-to-tail loops because of the surge of energy/transition at loop straight since he’s throwing some seriously tight backcasts. So I introduced Drift and I’m seeing some excellent results from that. Since the 170 has really taken over Distance Casting, we talk much less about Drift, but it does offer many benefits in the ladder of improvement.

https://www.sexyloops.com/flycast/drift/

What has this to do with Tension Discontinuity during the stroke, you may well ask? Well if you are finding it difficult to find time, then the Drift teaches you that you have more time than you think. More time allows you to be smoother and have a more gradual force input.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Tension Discontinuity /DN

#35

Post by Phil Blackmar » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:05 pm

Paul-

I will work on drift. You are spot on that I hit it too hard too soon, maybe because there is a little creep, but when I focus on my shoulders being slightly more tilted I get a much smoother transition.

With that said, I am still struggling with tracking in the same sense Cris mentioned, after over a year working on it!!! The first part I understand but I can't put a finger on the second part. I don't fight it as much with the 7 wt on up. I have spent the past two weeks working very hard on getting a vertical rod plane and loop, yet the problem persists. I have: watched in a mirror, thrown on top of a line, thrown with my elbow in line with the target (dart style), closed stance, walk thru to shoulders parallel to target line, PULD, and more.

There are two parts to the problem which I have observed. Part A in this pic:
fly path.jpg
occurs because my rod path moves outward at the start of the forward stroke. My backcast alignment has been slightly off to the right, 4 ft with 75-80 ft of carry, but when I make sure to align properly, the problems persists. The outward movement goes back to a problem with my golf swing that is now in my casting stroke. I understand and am working on it... Yet, even when I make a better transition to forward cast, problem B remains.

I just can't get a handle on the cause of part B. My rod alignment at the end of a cast is to the right and I am trying to get it more in line. Yet, even when I get it lined up better, the problem remains. I use a slower haul when working on the bigger loop drill which you gave me a few weeks ago. It is not a max distance cast, but, I was throwing 100 to 110 feet last night when things lined up and I got a much better layout with the slower haul. But, as soon as I sped the haul up, boom the problem layout appeared. This has to be due to the bend of the rod being oriented a little to the right at the time of the haul. Would you agree???? If so, any drills for this? The ribbed grip inserts have helped a little but have not been the solution.

I can manipulate my release and screw my hand clockwise, like throwing a slider in baseball, and get rid of much of the layout issue but I don't think that is the answer either.

Hope the jungle treats you well and you get on the water soon. All the best.

Phil

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Re: Tension Discontinuity /DN

#36

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:15 pm

There are two things to look at Phil, if you haven’t…

1) if the rod is canted at all then counterflex will drive the rod tip inwards putting a wave in the line. This is very common and almost unavoidable with a Roll Cast for example. This is point C at the apex between A and B. It’s a wave that runs from rod tip to fly chasing the loop.

2) if the backcast target is not aligned to the front target it will also cause a hook. B could be the back target being in behind the back of a right handed caster, relative to the front target.

I think 1 can also result in B layout as well. I need to check this in the morning. But there are two ways I can see that occurring, a horizontal “dangling end” as a result of tilted rod plane being the most likely.

I personally don’t chase perfection, I chase making it happen. I don’t say that to excuse imperfection, but to allow the stuff that’s out of my control to work for me. I don’t know how to explain that but sometimes in the heat of the moment the cast happens in a way that we could never repeat in practise. I’m sure you must have that in golf. I suppose one difference is that you have more time to visualise the shot. I would love to hear about how you go about that.

Anyway that said I’d be looking closely at casting plane and target alignment.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Tension Discontinuity /DN

#37

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:21 pm

It’s also possible that your haul is pulling your rod inwards. Do you have a video of your haul?

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: Tension Discontinuity /DN

#38

Post by Phil Blackmar » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:25 am

I saw a video today of my cast shot from 20 feet in front between me and the target. After I cleaned the vomit off myself, I cussed myself for not doing this a long time ago. I think I was doing better later today but the wind was too strong to get a good look at the layout. If it looks better, I will send a video tomorrow. I need to work thru the changes to get a good enough feel to control the size of my loop. Part of my learning process is making big loops like you recommended.

When I do it “right” it feels terrible in a very good way. Lol

The best way I can describe what I saw is to say it looked like I had a rattlesnake in my hand.

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Re: Tension Discontinuity /DN

#39

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:40 am

That’s always a frightening angle! When measuring competitions we are looking head-on at the caster from 100’ plus. If it makes you feel any better I’ve never seen anyone throw distance perfectly straight. I know I slice inwards; it’s far worse when I’m not tuned up, but still there even when I am. For me it’s about minimising this while still keeping the force in play. Fortunately the bit that matters most is the Casting Stroke especially around MCL and just afterwards. Ie when hauling.

Accuracy is different and that cast and loop can and should be perfectly vertically aligned, not just close.

Another issue with the long carry is “Dangle”. It’s possible to eliminate the Dangling End completely, but not at max carry/max backcast speed, in which case we are trying to minimise it yet still keep the force needed to throw the long cast.

That’s how I see it anyway. I’m not sure about the others. For me it’s about making the longest cast in spite of these inconsistencies. I can get rid of them both completely but not for my longest casts.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Tension Discontinuity /DN

#40

Post by Phil Blackmar » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:07 pm

Paul-

I was so far off it was pathetic. So many of my old golf habits coming back in to play again.

I finished second and fifth two years in the national long drive in the US when I was younger. I understand the steps necessary to maximizing power. However, knowing something and having the skill set to do it are two different things. Only time will tell for me: I wish I would have started when I was younger

You asked about visualization. In competitive golf, you have 40 seconds to play your shot. In this way, it is similar to competition distance casting. How you use this time is critical for success. In golf, this 40 second period is called the pre-shot routine. In my opinion, it is poorly understood by a surprising number of players and coaches. The goal of the routine is to get in the best mental/emotional state as well as enhance concentration without tightening up.

The topic is too broad to cover here so I will put some information together for you and send it via email. The short version is the competitor must be self-aware, able to make adjustments both physically and emotionally, and able to concentrate on the memory of the shot/cast to be made.The performance of the shot/cast is done without using words. This is because words are conscious thought.Feelings of motion, target awareness and trajectory awareness are the tools. Visualization and feels are subconscious thought. Memory of the shot prior to playing it aids the process. Situational practice is critical to be able to do these things under pressure innately, and with trust. The goal is a sense of belonging and déjà vu built around belief so that you can remain calm despite the importance.

Let me know if this gets your competitive juices flowing. The following video is Tiger Woods, maybe the best at doing this of all time in golf. His dad was special forces and trained himself from an early age situationally. He worked with a military psychologist who used hypnosis to channel his subconscious creativity. His mom was of eastern background who taught him meditation.



All the best. Phil

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