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The effect hauling has on line speed

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: The effect hauling has on line speed

#21

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed May 11, 2022 6:59 am

VGB wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 6:00 am
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 7:36 pm
Looks like even when I just fool around, it's at the end of the line for the cast.
Length and duration might shift, but time is at the end. Somehow also makes most sense given the long lever in the other hand :)
You are going to spook the fish up there :D Sorry, I’m not sure what “time is at the end”means but I agree that the haul is later in the cast. However, I have no reference to bend or MCL in real time, it’s not where my eyes are focused and peripheral vision doesn’t give enough information to supply the information.

Regards

Vince
Hi Vince

Already caught all the fish catchable there ;)

I haven't got any reference to either bend or MCL while fishing, what I mean with end, is that when my haul peaks, that's also when the line is delivered. That's the end of accelerating the line for me. So if its just a short haul, it starts later than if it was a long haul, but both end at the same time in the cast..

Cheers
Lasse
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Re: The effect hauling has on line speed

#22

Post by RSalar » Wed May 11, 2022 7:04 am

James9118 wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 12:07 pm
I regularly practice casting one handed (i.e. one hand placed behind my back, not touching the line). With a #5 I can usually cast it this way out to ~110ft (my best is 117ft). If I add in the hauling hand with the same outfit I'll typically be in the 125-135ft region. [All casts in good conditions for distance]

James.
Hi James,

That's amazing! I have to ask -- (and you're not my type btw) how tall are you? Are you like a pro basketball player type of person? And, I assume you are slipping line with your casting hand to get to your max carry length, then shooting the rest to 110'? As opposed to a PULD type of thing ... ?

--Thanks, Ron

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Re: The effect hauling has on line speed

#23

Post by RSalar » Wed May 11, 2022 7:13 am

Paul Arden wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:06 pm
Hi Ron,

Since hauling directly increases line speed, whatever speed you can move the hand is the additional speed you give to the line. In fact to be precise, it is whatever speed you can separate the butt ring from the line hand, since hauling is the separation of these two points and not only the line hand moving.

We have a had a few measurements slightly on the low side of what I would have expected. I believe we had some at 10m/s and maybe the highest was 15m/s? (22 and 33mph respectively). To put that in comparison I seem to recall tip speed on a full blown 5WT distance cast is approaching 100mph.

Gordy did some excellent work in measuring some of mine and Lasse’s casts.

Cheers, Paul
Thanks Paul,

Obviously the speed of the haul is not a constant speed from start to stop. I assume the max haul speed is near the end of the haul with the added snap of the wrist? So measuring time and distance of the haul from start to stop would not give you an accurate measurement of the speed at the fastest portion of the haul. Can you explain what that extra snap and higher speed at the end does and how much that adds in comparison to the speed of the entire hauling stroke? I'm not looking for science here -- just your opinion in regards to the length and speed of the haul and what matters most.

--Ron

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Re: The effect hauling has on line speed

#24

Post by VGB » Wed May 11, 2022 7:45 am

when my haul peaks, that's also when the line is delivered.
Perfect, thanks Lasse
"The deep truth of being human is that there is no objective experience. Our brains are not built to measure the absolute value of anything. All that we perceive and feel is coloured by expectation, comparison, and circumstance."

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Re: The effect hauling has on line speed

#25

Post by James9118 » Wed May 11, 2022 7:59 am

RSalar wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 7:04 am
Hi James,

That's amazing! I have to ask -- (and you're not my type btw) how tall are you? Are you like a pro basketball player type of person? And, I assume you are slipping line with your casting hand to get to your max carry length, then shooting the rest to 110'? As opposed to a PULD type of thing ... ?

--Thanks, Ron
Hi Ron,

:D :blush: No, I'm a very average height (~5ft 11in and probably shrinking) and slim build, but getting a bit podgy around the middle these days. Yes, although I try and maximise the length of line I pick up, I do have to slip some more into the cast. This isn't as easy as normal as I'm used to controlling line slip with my hauling hand rather than my rod hand. Another consequence is that because the line is now trapped under the rod hand my grip on the rod handle is much tighter than I would normally use when double hauling.

James.

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Re: The effect hauling has on line speed

#26

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed May 11, 2022 12:45 pm

Hi James

Do you use the same stroke whitout hauling as you do with?

Cheers
Lasse
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It makes no difference at all whether you are in a fishing environment or on a casting court. Technique transcends all casting environments, irrespective of what, and where, those environments exist.

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Re: The effect hauling has on line speed

#27

Post by James9118 » Wed May 11, 2022 2:14 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 12:45 pm
Hi James

Do you use the same stroke whitout hauling as you do with?

Cheers
Lasse
Hi Lasse,

No - without the haul I use pull-back and have to squeeze the forward cast tight with thrust. With the haul I'd just 170 it these days.

Cheers, James

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Re: The effect hauling has on line speed

#28

Post by RSalar » Tue May 17, 2022 11:46 am

Best stance for max haul speed:

I see some tournament distance casters standing with their rod side foot forward and other with the rod side foot back. I find that with my body shape, and limited flexibility, I can haul faster with my rod side foot forward. And if you watch a baseball pitcher throw from the mound he will end up with his throwing arm side leg forward -- it's a natural way to rotate the body through 180 degrees. Thoughts, suggestions?

Thanks,

Ron

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Re: The effect hauling has on line speed

#29

Post by Paul Arden » Wed May 18, 2022 12:06 am

Hi Ron,

For about 10 years I was closed stance with a step to closed stance. Ie right foot front to right foot front with weight shift. This gave me very straight tracking and as you point out a better haul. It feels like “untwisting” on the delivery cast.

However I had a problem with this technique in the WCs in Norway in that when I shifted my weight forward the pontoons would lower slightly. It wasn’t enough to cause me to fall in but with that and my concerns about stepping off the platform completely saw me holding back slightly. Which is not something you want to be doing in competition.

So when I rebuilt my stroke the next time I built it as “Open Stance”. “Open” is interesting in this regards because after a while casting closed to closed, that started to feel open and Closed felt closed. :p

Funny thing is I haven’t been able to track straight closed to closed since :D I was going to rebuild closed to closed again for this year but off the roof of my boat this is completely impossible and I will fall in 100%!

Now some of the Swedes do something different which is more like 2 steps. I see advantages and disadvantages with this. Tip travel is very much longer for sure. But for me the biggest disadvatange is stepping off the platform. Stepping off is not such a problem but it’s the thinking about my feet with every cast that is a problem. I’m of the opinion that if the WCs were cast off the ground and not off a floating platform that many more people would be taking two steps. A lot of people are now taking two steps so it will be interesting to watch in Norway. Especially if someone does actually fall in :D

These things in my opinion are the “1%ers”. They might give you a small edge in competition but the wind is a big player here, and the distances are measured to the closest 1/2 meter with the longest two being counted, the second being a tie-breaker. And I’m not totally convinced.

What I would suggest is if you are going to change stance, then have a small break. Maybe work on accuracy, Speys or presentations. Then start the rebuild process slowly. I work on form and Carry first. I might spend 2-3 weeks just working on Carry and then one week on the Launch. By then it should feel natural and happen subconsciously. For such a big change like this to peak in one prevents me peaking in an other. So comparing them takes a lot of work and time!

Cheers, Paul
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Re: The effect hauling has on line speed

#30

Post by RSalar » Wed May 18, 2022 5:15 am

Hi Paul,

That’s very interesting and useful. I never thought about the fact that the mechanics of the long distance cast was developed to optimize the distance that can be reliably achieved from a floating platform. So that changes my thinking completely because my goal is to optimize the distance that I can reliably achieve while standing on the ground. I’m sure that if baseball pitchers had to throw their pitches from an unstable floating platform we’d see a completely different throwing style!

Thanks for the info and your insights,

Ron

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