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Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

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Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

#1

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:11 am

Merlin, et al...

I am still reviewing and digesting a lot of the demos I saw at a recent regional fly show. I observed just about every casting demonstrator. I watch 'em all, even if I have never heard of them. I figure if they are confident enough to put on a microphone in front of a large audience of avid fly anglers they just might share something of value to me... and they always give me some things to think about.

One statement that I heard multiple times, from different demos, was that "a hard stop transmits the power/energy/momentum from the rod into the line". And/or that the stop is the most important part of the cast.

I was sort of surprised to hear that still being promoted.

I know (thought?) that this concept has been stomped to death here on SL, and I don't think we need to go through all that again, so forgive me if I am opening a soured bottle of milk...

But... is there any simple explanation or mechanical/physical equation that lends any credence to that statement?
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Re: Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

#2

Post by Boisker » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:40 am

I find this interesting, Lasse recently mentioned on another thread he makes no reference to the stop when instructing... which sort of blew my mind :D :D :D
The over emphasis on a ‘hard stop’ with phrases like hitting a nail with a hammer undoubtedly resulted in my having some issues to resolve further down the line... particularly tailing loops :whistle:
so I get not ‘hammering’ home the stop when instructing... excuse the pun :D

But I can’t quite get my head around how there is no mention of the stop?
Do you literally not refer to the stop as being in any way a key part of the cast?
If so, is the instruction more by demonstrating the cast?

Or is it just the emphasis on a ‘hard stop’ that SL doesn’t like?

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Re: Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

#3

Post by Merlin » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:27 am

Hi Gary

Interesting point. I take the words as they are to analyze the argument”:
a hard stop transmits the power/energy/momentum from the rod into the line
Line speed is built from the very start of the cast till RSP1 to make things simple. We can consider two main phases: from start up to MCF, the acceleration phase, line speed is built by leverage whilst elastic energy is stored into the rod. At the end of this phase, the line already has typically 50% to 55% of its final energy. The above statement is thus exaggerated in the sense that all line energy does not comes from the stop, but maybe 50%.

From MCF to RSP1, the rod unloads as it is decelerating (this is the stopping phase), stored elastic energy is given back to the line, and at the same time rod momentum (inertial) energy is also transmitted to the line. The deceleration contents two elements: a natural propensity of the rod to decelerate its butt (SDM), and a deceleration induced by the caster himself.

Let’s look at those two individual mechanisms: elastic energy stored into the rod and inertial effect due to rod mass.

Rod elastic energy: the larger the deceleration is the larger line speed can be up to a certain point: this is caused by the match between the deceleration time and the rod (and line) speed characteristics. There is an “ideal” deceleration time interval which fits with the rod characteristics (and line carry). If you decelerate too hard if I can say so, you begin to lose some performance. This mechanism (getting back rod elastic energy) can thus be optimized and generally speaking you can take advantage from a hard stop since an extremely short deceleration time may be out of reach.

Inertial effect: this one is directly linked to two key parameters: a mass characteristic of the rod and the deceleration itself. Again, if you decelerate quickly, you improve the benefit induced by the inertial effect coming from rod mass.

If I stop at this point I am just justifying the statements you heard about. But there is another mechanism which can put some shade on these firsts conclusions, and it is the propensity of a rod to decelerate its butt: in other words, the self deceleration mechanism (SDM). The parameter of this mechanism is the line mass: the larger this mass is, the higher the self deceleration rate is. It is then obvious that this effect is interesting for distance casts and heavy carries, and this why some casters speak of “stopless” casts: you do not need to force the deceleration of the rod, there is a built in mechanism which takes the lead and makes the job. At the other end of the spectrum, the SDM is rather weak for a leader cast (example) and the caster has to generate the deceleration to get the best of the rod (both spring and inertial mechanisms). In between those ends of the spectrum you can imagine many things, including a potential benefit induced by a perfect fit between caster’s deceleration and rod’s one in some cases. IMHO, for most fishing casts, a so called hard stop is beneficial, and beyond a certain carry, the caster has to take advantage from the SDM. Immaculate sense of timing must be a concept linked to deceleration of the rod, I think.

Merlin
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Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

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Re: Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

#4

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:41 am

But by all means, don't haul the line, as you loose so much potential from the so called hard stop 😉 and if you want smooth casting, anything abrupt is useless, go soft instead!

People like myths, it helps justify spending big bucks on red herrings.

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Re: Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

#5

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:50 am

For me it’s a misunderstanding about the stop. The stop isn’t like hitting a wall when we cast, it’s actually an abrupt acceleration leading to the stop and it’s the acceleration that gives the results we want not what happens afterwards.

Look at you hand in slow motion when you make what you think is an abrupt stop and you can see there is a sudden movement forwards (in the forward cast!) just prior to this.

We’ve been saying this for about 20 years. This sort of instructor education really needs to come from the instructor associations to correct these problems.

On the other hand, it works and gets results despite being technically incorrect, so that’s probably why these concepts still appear in instruction. If you tell someone to “stop harder” you often get the results. I also use it because I know this. Tell someone to “stop harder” on the backcast and you get the acceleration profile you are looking for.

If you call a hammer a screwdriver it still nails holes in the wall.

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Re: Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

#6

Post by jarmo » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:34 pm

A nice topic, I will be following this with great interest. Although I am not sure what it is we are discussing here. Is it "the stop being the most important thing?" Or "a hard stop?" Or just the concept of a stop in general?

A couple of weeks ago I tried to put Lasse's idea into practice. One of my students was a small kid with a great attitude and zero casting experience. I tried to teach him to cast without explicitly mentioning the stop.

We did a triangle sort of thingy. Looked at the arc. We were throwing frisbees. Went from horizontal to tilted plane.

But the loops were open and weak, and the leader failed to straighten. Otherwise things seemed just fine. So I crumbled and introduced the stop. And then it all clicked. He was throwing tight loops with very little power. At short distances, but still. We were happy.

So I could not do it without mentioning the stop. But I am willing to try again if you give me some pointers.

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Re: Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

#7

Post by Boisker » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:40 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:50 am
For me it’s a misunderstanding about the stop. The stop isn’t like hitting a wall when we cast, it’s actually an abrupt acceleration leading to the stop and it’s the acceleration that gives the results we want not what happens afterwards.

Look at you hand in slow motion when you make what you think is an abrupt stop and you can see there is a sudden movement forwards (in the forward cast!) just prior to this.

We’ve been saying this for about 20 years. This sort of instructor education really needs to come from the instructor associations to correct these problems.

On the other hand, it works and gets results despite being technically incorrect, so that’s probably why these concepts still appear in instruction. If you tell someone to “stop harder” you often get the results. I also use it because I know this. Tell someone to “stop harder” on the backcast and you get the acceleration profile you are looking for.

If you call a hammer a screwdriver it still nails holes in the wall.

Cheers, Paul
I think that is key Paul...

This may be sacrilege, but...
The regular posters (I don’t include myself in this category... I actually mean regular posters who are advanced casters) are really considering fly casting on a different plane to most people.
As an analogy... I did Chemistry from 11-18 yrs at school, upon completing A-levels at 18 I left it well alone...
aged 11... atom, nucleus, protons, neutrons, electrons.. that’s about all you need to know
Ages 12... occupy set orbits around the nucleus
Aged 14... actually not an orbit, they occupy more complex spaces than that
Ages 17... none of the above... it’s all about probability and there’s even hints they may not be there all the time!!
I got out of there about this point..
No doubt degree would have added more complexity
Above that sit research professors who understand the picture taught at degree level isn’t really accurate...

That’s what the ‘regular’ advanced caster posters are on SL... they are the professors of the casting world :D
Most people just need to know how to make the cast, by whichever descriptive terms make it easiest to comprehend how to make the cast... it doesn’t really matter how technically accurate those terms actually are... just so long as they work in developing the cast :whistle:

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Re: Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

#8

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:39 pm

jarmo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:34 pm
A nice topic, I will be following this with great interest. Although I am not sure what it is we are discussing here. Is it "the stop being the most important thing?" Or "a hard stop?" Or just the concept of a stop in general?

A couple of weeks ago I tried to put Lasse's idea into practice. One of my students was a small kid with a great attitude and zero casting experience. I tried to teach him to cast without explicitly mentioning the stop.

We did a triangle sort of thingy. Looked at the arc. We were throwing frisbees. Went from horizontal to tilted plane.

But the loops were open and weak, and the leader failed to straighten. Otherwise things seemed just fine. So I crumbled and introduced the stop. And then it all clicked. He was throwing tight loops with very little power. At short distances, but still. We were happy.

So I could not do it without mentioning the stop. But I am willing to try again if you give me some pointers.
Hi Jarmo

Did he throw tight loops with little force when doing the triangle?
Why did you talk about arc?
What where your reason for throwing frisbees?

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Re: Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

#9

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:50 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:50 am

If you call a hammer a screwdriver it still nails holes in the wall.

Cheers, Paul
Very effective way of communicating, and not really smart unless what you want is holes in the wall, and the ones knowing what a screwdriver is is left thinking you're off your rockers... 😜

Aren't you really calling Joan's power snap a stop? If that's the case, Joan makes more sense....

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Re: Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

#10

Post by jarmo » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:16 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:39 pm
Hi Jarmo
Hello maestro!
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:39 pm
Did he throw tight loops with little force when doing the triangle?
No, not to the degree I would have wanted to. And usually I would have introduced the idea of a "stop" at that point. But I wanted to see what happens later.

It got worse going with a tilted plane. Which - in my limited experience - is a general trend: movements become larger and less controlled when making the switch from horizontal to tilted.
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:39 pm
Why did you talk about arc?
To avoid the windscreen wiper effect. Which was certainly there at first.

I gave him reference points for the sides of the triangle, but I made it sure that I never mentioned the stop. I showed him the stop, but never said it out loud. I just said that the one of the sides of the triangle is here (reference point), and the other side here (another reference).

When I finally introduced the stop I gave reference points and asked to stop there.
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:39 pm
What where your reason for throwing frisbees?
Sorry for the confusion: we were not throwing actual frisbees. I was testing that analogy to introduce late rotation (not my usual analogy, but I am trying out different things).

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