Q: How does hauling work?

[flyfisher666]

There are two main reasons for hauling.

* Distribution of work input between hands.
* Maximum total work input.

To keep it simple: Hauling adds linespeed directly to the line.
The effect on the rod is somewhat counterintuitive though.

In the distribution case of the hauled cast the rod hand does less work and therefor the rod bends less for the same linespeed.

In the max work input case it gets a bit complicated. As the rod hand can't bend the rod more (the rod hand is already at max force input), the rod is instead bent for a longer time/unbends slower when hauling. Maximum tipspeed is therefore actually slower in a hauled cast then in a nonhauled cast, but the direct increase in linespeed from the line hand when hauling is bigger then the loss in tipspeed.

[Bernd Ziesche]

the rod is instead bent for a longer time/unbends slower when hauling. Maximum tipspeed is therefore actually slower in a hauled cast then in a nonhauled cast,

Hi
That sounds interesting to me.
Hauled or not hauled cast, RSP 1 position always means no rod bend left. RSP1 happens in the same position, why I don't see how hauling lengthens time for the rod to reach RSP1.
I agree that hauling can flatten the tip path though.
Maybe someone can help me to understand the above?
Thanks
Bernd

[Merlin]

Hi Berndt

If you believe in usefulness of some models, here is an answer for a cast with and without haul (the cast input is inspired from Paul's 170).
There is very little difference in timing for RSP (4 milliseconds), and the tip speed for the hauled cast is higher by 2m/s. Incidentally MCL takes place 5ms later for the hauled cast, even if the haul is "late enough".

However the non hauled cast corresponds to the "quicker" return to RSP (by 4 ms as mentionned above). The hauled cast gives a 9m/s increase over the tip speed, for a haul max speed of 10 m/s.

All that appears to be in the same ballpark.

Merlin

[flyfisher666]

Hi Bernd
Why would rsp have to be in the same position?
I agree it would be if the rod is stopped completely and immediately at the same position.

But the rod is not stopped completely and immediately.
The rod rotates a bit further after the "stop" in the hauled cast before it reaches rsp, because it takes longer time for it to unbend.

Well... That is what i would have answered before i read merlins reply anyway
According to Merlins modelled cast, tipspeed is higher for the hauled cast. Which contradicts what i think.
On the other hand it does predict that the rod reaches rsp a tad bit later in the hauled cast.



@Merlin - When does max haulspeed happen in that cast?

//Joakim

[Merlin]

Joakim

Here is another comparison with what I expected to be a more sensitive case. The "hauled" situation corresponds to the limit of the tailing zone. It is rewarding in terms of speed but impossible to manage with sufficient precison. The "late haul" situation is safer, with a lower speed and you can see the difference in timing and time of recovery.

Haul comparison.JPG (28.87 KiB) Viewed 4171 times

It is still a question of a handful of ms. The late haul reduces maximum tip speed a little bit, and delays MCL. The time of recovery is longer as expected.

Merlin

[jarmo]

To keep it simple: Hauling adds linespeed directly to the line.

To alleviate cabin fever, I bought an online casting video yesterday. (One that is on MCI study list.) One statement on this video is that

what hauling really does is it causes the rod to bend deeper ... store more energy [into the rod].

The fact that a haul increases line speed [directly?] was mentioned, but this effect was considered to be secondary.

I am in the directly added line speed camp, and I do not need to justify this to myself. However, in future I may face a situation where I need to discuss this topic.

What is the most compelling evidence we have, so far, that the primary effect of hauling is direct increase in line speed?

I am sure there are at least 3245 posts related to this on this site, but I am looking for a summary. I am not scared by modelling results, but I would prefer something else.

(Not having read those 3245+ posts, off the bat I would think that since someone has shown experimentally that the "spring effect" is relatively small, the "bend" added by the haul can not explain the observed increase in the final line speed. But that is just my first guess, which I am sure will be rectified here in no time.)

BTW, there is some cool stuff in that video, and I like the approach and attitude, so I have zero regrets about the purchase.

[George C]

I found post 36 in this thread by Merlin incredibly helpful.......and one of the best posts I have come across on this site. It discusses (and illustrates) the various effects of hauling (and haul timing) on rod loading, unloading, counterflex, and line speed.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3433&start=30

[jarmo]

Hello George.

I found post 36 in this thread by Merlin incredibly helpful.......and one of the best posts I have come across on this site. It discusses (and illustrates) the various effects of hauling (and haul timing) on rod loading, unloading, counterflex, and line speed.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3433&start=30

That was interesting. From that it actually looks difficult to determine the primary effect of hauling, since it seems to be possible to get a huge "bend" and a huge final speed increase at the same time - but also unfortunately a tail on the side.

But that is still a model, right? I was hoping for direct experimental validation. Something simple, for a simple man.

[Graeme H]

Hi Jarmo,

If I get a chance this weekend, I'll shoot some slow motion footage of a hauled cast with a marked line.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Merlin]

Hi Jarmo

I think Gordy already analyzed a video with a haul and that he could compare tip speed, line speed and haul speed. The cast is one of Lasse's cast with a marker on the line. The problem is that you cannot refer to a non hauled cast (exactly the same input) and derive the effect of the bend in the rod and the effect of the haul speed separately. Usually, if the hauled is well made (late), you see that you roughly have line speed = tip speed + haul speed.

Then you conclude that the effect of a bend in the rod is nil, but you ignore what is behind the curtain bacause you just cannot evaluate it. This is why modeling is useful to show you that effect (bend). Here I am using some results from the model: imagine you haul pretty late, then you get the relationship I mention above. Now let's imagine that we tune peak haul velocity just before Minimum Chord Length (rather early), at the very limit of seeing a tail in the line. I caricaturize a little bit but you would not see a difference between tip maximum speed and line maximum speed, although you would get the highest speed increase, above the haul speed (!), by comparison to a non hauled cast. Strange indeed, but this is to show you that a video analyzis may not give you the full picture.

This is why some competition casters try to stay at the limit of the tail into the line to get a very high line speed, but also a pretty large loop. Finally, the not so fast late haul with its smaller loop is likely the best.

Merlin