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Analysing loop propagation

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Graeme H
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Analysing loop propagation

#91

Post by Graeme H » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:37 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:26 pm
Well for me I think it stops becoming a transverse wave the moment it becomes untethered. Ie it stops moving vertically (in this case) which would be the transverse direction.
Okay, so it's the "moving vertically" that's the problem now, even though the wave still moving the same direction relative to the medium itself (i.e. from the rod tip to the fly). Maybe I should pan the video's frame of reference down at the time we release the tether so that the wave keeps moving up in the frame. ;)

I guess I'm at the point where I should hit the pause button. Arguing against the logical paradigm of "loop ipso facto not wave" is not getting me anywhere.

I'll return later when I've gathered some mathematical data using videos and Tracker software. Mathematics always works in this sub-forum and I'm sure you'll understand what I'm saying once you see the integral sign and some trigonometry a few times. ;)

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

Bianchetti Ivan
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Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:25 am

Re: Analysing loop propagation

#92

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:48 am

I would like to understand, if the waves carried the boats, all the boats would be on the beach, why not the boats, but my fly would?

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Graeme H
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#93

Post by Graeme H » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:10 am

The wave carries the boats up and down. If you were able to freeze the water instantly and the wave was under the boat at the time, the boat would have been left higher up, even though the direction of wave propagation was horizontal.

Here we have vertical wave propagation and the fly is carried horizontally.
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Bianchetti Ivan
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#94

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:36 pm

Graeme H wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:10 am
The wave carries the boats up and down. If you were able to freeze the water instantly and the wave was under the boat at the time, the boat would have been left higher up, even though the direction of wave propagation was horizontal.

Here we have vertical wave propagation and the fly is carried horizontally.
So is the fly above the wave, or is it dragged?

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Graeme H
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#95

Post by Graeme H » Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:42 pm

Hi Ivan,

The fly, and every part of the line, is part of the wave. I know that doesn't help answer your question, but the question does not really make sense.

This might help: Imagine you have applied some tape directly to the fly line 30' back from the leader. You make a cast and put a mend in the line (an obvious wave) that lands 30' from the end of the line. The mend (wave) moves away from you after you move the rod sideways ("away from you" is the propagation direction) but the mend stops at 30'. Your tape was transported sideways even though the wave moved away from you.

Mend.jpg
Mend.jpg (19.66 KiB) Viewed 163 times

The loop is a transverse wave propagated away from you. The fly is transported sideways relative to the propagation direction. In a cast, that propagation direction happens to be upwards, but since the line is falling under the effect of gravity, we fail to observe it rising. The line falls as the wave rises, cancelling each other out. (You can see the line falling in the video I've posted many times so far, but most recently in post #87.)

Cheers,
Graeme
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Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#96

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:22 pm

Graeme H wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:37 pm

I guess I'm at the point where I should hit the pause button. Arguing against the logical paradigm of "loop ipso facto not wave" is not getting me anywhere.

Cheers,
Graeme
Nope... don't hit pause. There seems to me to be quite a bit of your theory that fits.

I think the problem is that the human mind just wants a tidy "theory of everything" , and some things are too complex for us to find it.

In chemistry, when you get into the upper classes, they tell you all that effort you put into understanding Bohr's atom model was BS... welcome to quantum mechanics!

Yet, the entire Periodic table is based on Bohr...
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

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Graeme H
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#97

Post by Graeme H » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:18 am

Mangrove Cuckoo wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:22 pm
Nope... don't hit pause. There seems to me to be quite a bit of your theory that fits.

I think the problem is that the human mind just wants a tidy "theory of everything" , and some things are too complex for us to find it.
Thanks, but there's no point simply repeating myself ad nauseum. If people aren't comprehending my position by now, I need a different approach to continue with. I tend to avoid explaining with mathematics wherever I can because it really turns most people off, but it seems that some people won't trust their own eyes just yet. So, maths it is. :(

I agree about the seeking of simple answers. I am like everyone else here (looking for simplicity), but it's a matter of perspective: From where I look, what I'm proposing is the simplest of answers. To me, it's far simpler than conjuring some other type of wave, especially when the same mechanism is used to generate mends, tails, rod leg wobbles and loops (i.e. moving line with the rod tip).

Cheers,
Graeme
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Michael Rebholz
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#98

Post by Michael Rebholz » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:58 pm

hi Folks,
i am delighted to see this discussion here. I wasnt on here for a while and when i seen this topic here i had to dig in again. Pls have a look at the video link



the wavespey experiment/excercise. Something i truly and highly recommend.
I also agree that it is a transverse pulse wave.

Allow me to give you a bit of food for thought...

1 why can you hear bad casting?
because it produces the wrong type of waves : SOUNDWAVES, thats what you hear....if it was a proper cast (a transverse pulse wave) you couldnt, wouldnt and shouldt hear it.

Waves occur in three shapes
1 transverse pulse
2 torsional
3 sound
waves

Why do Pauls torque/twist (or what i call torx) casts work so well ?
my educated guess is that combining the the transverse pulse and the torsional waves from the rod into the line gives the rod more of a "snap" to fire it (some would call it unload). I cant controll them torx well yet and casting practice season is only upon me and i will work on this. I am 100 percent convinced that if we learn to control and combine the torx craic into our casting we will throw distances that have not been thought possible before and super high line speeds.

I am very interested in this topic and i was trying to find out where the loop in casting is coming from. And this gets very interesting now: the more questions you ask about hte loop in casting the less information you get. I wrote emails to casting oragnisations, numerous asting heavyweights out there and NOBODY knows where the loop is coming from. There is no such thing as a historical source for the loop as a casting concept with definitions and descriptions. At least i havent found it and noone else i asked so far coulod help me with that.

On the other hand i found out about a book from 1885 by david webster, called "the angler and the looop rod" that the Loop in this first ever source about loop (whatsoever) is the "tip ring" of the rod because it is made from a furled horse hair loop that is attached to the rod tip. I try to post a screenshot of the source later. this Loop rod has nothing to do with casting and line pictures and casting technique is not mentioned in one word in the book, which is for free online, btw.

Theres another problem with the loop in itself. And that is its own definition: By definition in ANY lexicon a loop has to overlap, touch and or reoccur. Our casting loops DONT DO that. Not even if they are tailing. Ergo the definition of the loop in flycasting is wrong. Sorry, that hurt me too when i learned it.

So its called a loop, And has never been questioned. I do question it very much, the loop as line picture is nonsense for a couple of other reasons. Such as the question for Example: "where do you measure the tightness of a loop?".... i dont want to overstretch it here...

Much more interesting though is where the LOOP, the real sexy one really is:

Its the path of the rod tip: That means a loop (in a correct sense of its definition) is only fullfilled when the "loop-rod" tip of the rod passes the spot Where it began

in other words one loop would be:

one pickup and laydown cast : till the tip passes the same spot when picking up
or
one single spey cast from the dangle to the dangle
for example

that means the fishing process is included in the loop, And makes it therefore significantly more sexy than ever...


Line pictures are expressions os rod vibrations. controlled vibrations.

the dolphin nose and all other types of shock waves are just secondary waves.

Loops dont unroll, they reoccur
waves unroll

flycasting is changing, and thats great news



I also think there a few relevant consequences for tackle design as well as for casting in this and we have exciting times ahead.

cheers and TL

Michael

John Waters
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#99

Post by John Waters » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:35 pm

Why does wiggling the rod tip sideways prior to initiating a roll cast prove a roll cast line shape is a wave?

Why can I hear a good cast?

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#100

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:12 pm

Just out of curiosity, instead of the word “loop” what word do you use, Michael?

Cheers, Paul
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