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Analysing loop propagation

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Graeme H
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#121

Post by Graeme H »

Why does it matter who coined a term or when it was first done? I don't know who first said "WTF?" but it's still a useful acronym and we all understand what it means.
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Michael Rebholz
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#122

Post by Michael Rebholz »

@greame
It matters a lot. Because without a reference, a source it doesn't mean anything.

Where are the answers to my above asked questions?

Why do you ask what we are smoking?... To distract from the subject because you have no answers?

It's not just a word, that's exactly the point. It's only a word yes, but it's context is wrong. And I have proven this with multiple approaches:

1 wavespey
2 I have a source for the loop from 1885 which doesn't say what many want to hear, still it's there. The casting loop doesn't seem to have this foundation, definition and mention nowhere, or else pls go find it and shoe it to me.
3 a rod vibrates
4 the loop does not suit its own definition
5 producing sound with (particular bad) casting

And this matters because it has a huge influence on the perception of casting. Thinking in loops is a filter that doesn't do casting and casters any good. I know that because I threw and thought myself through bonkerspey. And one of the consequences outta this is the superbubble model (#Dstickman superbubble)

Ups consequently #Dstickman will have to change his name into #CStickman

The C, BTW way becomes a V in a very good cast, the V is the max amplitude in its best possible form (with the shortest timing window)

Where are the hard facts about the casting loop, anyone?

Cheers and TL
Michael
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James9118
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#123

Post by James9118 »

Michael Rebholz wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:39 am
1 If you produce sound, u produce the wrong type of wave,( or at least unnessecary ones) if u can hear things u are wasting energy out of your cast. The Soundwaves leave the cast in form of energy that doesn't contribute to it.
2 beginners often produce a lot of sound and it's well known that that shouldn't be, but the understand g in waves makes this far better understandable, clear and physically explainable.
Michael,

You do know that from a pure physics point of view it's impossible for any object to move through air without creating noise right? Yes, maybe not audible by a human ear, but sound none the less. However, with all the good casters I have stood by, I have heard a noise related to the linespeed they generate without fail. It's physically impossible to cast without this noise, anyone who contends otherwise is either deaf or exhibiting confirmation bias.

Regards, James
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Paul Arden
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#124

Post by Paul Arden »

Words make sense because we attach meanings to them. Words are in existence before dictionaries and it’s only after they are in common use do they get added to dictionaries. If you were to invent a totally new work, like “Zypgh” to mean what we currently refer to as “loop” then OK, good luck, but to use a word that we already use - “cast” - to mean something else is not going to help anyone!

The IFF did something quite strange a few years ago. It was decided that the Reach Cast was really a Reach Mend and instead of just knowing this they renamed it :D

With regards C loop /D loop, the line at the bottom of the C isn’t energised in the direction of the cast either, so if that is your criteria then the correct term would be I loop.

Cheers, Paul
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Graeme H
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#125

Post by Graeme H »

I have absolutely no idea what you are on about Michael. Therefore, I have no answers for your questions at this moment and doubt I ever will.

If we want to communicate with people (as we must do when teaching) we need to use words and phrases others will understand. If we don't do that, we fail to get our message across. All fly casters (experienced and new) understand the concept of the loop. They can see it in action and instructors can use the concept of a loop during their classes.

Your posts are a perfect example of language failing to convey a message: I've now switched off anything you are trying to tell me because you appear to be talking in some other language. It means I'm going to ignore you and your messages from now on. You're going to have to work hard to win back my attention. Is that what you were trying to achieve?

Cheers,
Graeme
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Merlin
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#126

Post by Merlin »

Hi Michael

Can you please describe the tackle you are using in your videos: 11 foot rod ? #8 line?
I attach u here the oldest source of a loop: and it says different. It also agrees with what is say in my superbubble model. The path of the rod tip makes the loop and is the loop.
Bad luck we cannot see your source, can you write us what it is (book? title?).
Superbubble is the first 3 D Model in flycasting and looks at casts like swivel cones in 3D. The flatter the cone the better, still its all happening in 3D and not in 2D.
Is it yours? What is it based on? “Swivel cone” is a bit too conceptual for me. I’m more familiar with “Newton laws”.
The more questions u ask about the casting loop the more dubious it gets :.
Why is it called a loop?
What is it good for?
How and where is it measured?
Does a rod vibrate?
What is vibration?
Nobody knows why it has been named a loop and very few people care about the name since the name itself is of little importance. When we say loop we can figure out what it is.
You can describe a loop by its height most of the time. Some loops have an amazing shape and are difficult to describe. Is it a question related to the Superbubble model?
The two lasts questions are strange to me: if you have a 3D model of a cast then you must know the answers, otherwise your model is more conceptual than real. Of course the rod response to the input of the caster has to do with vibrations characteristics of a rod. Refer to wiki if you look after a definition of “vibration”.

I’m trying to catch your point on the cast: it seems to me that you are talking of a “big wave” which is generated by the rod and then transmitted to the line. Is my interpretation correct? To maximize energy use you say that one should use of energy developed by torsion of the rod to improve the cast and also by limiting the energy lost through noise? Did you ever estimate the amount of energy involved in each case? That would give you the potential of improvement in casting you are talking about. And I anticipate it is not so large.

You have a backlog in terms of answers Michael (e.g. John), now it is your turn to answer questions.

Merlin
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Bianchetti Ivan
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#127

Post by Bianchetti Ivan »

So as ignorant on the subject, let's say that I am learning to cast, I take a rod, I produce the largest circle I can, and a big wave is formed, this wave will travel on the line, the bigger the wave the more energy it contains and the more it is will it propagate? Because this is the point that interests me, it is here that I do not find myself with reality.
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Paul Arden
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#128

Post by Paul Arden »

Sometimes I would like a like button, because while I don’t have anything to add to Ivan’s post I like it very much!
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Michael Rebholz
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#129

Post by Michael Rebholz »

Screenshot_20201003_103022.jpg
Where are your hard facts considering the loop?
Michael Rebholz
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Re: Analysing loop propagation

#130

Post by Michael Rebholz »

FB_IMG_1599287356493.jpg
The superbubble looks at casts as swivel cones in 3D
And the base assumption is that the sum of all rod tip paths is a sphere ( the superbubble)
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