Question about tails

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Hi chaps,

Which leads to the question why doesn’t this result in an inverted tail? It’s obviously because of gravity but can someone expand on this answer please? It might be useful when we turn the tail the right way up again.

Thanks,
Paul

To clarify your question, particularly the "inverted tail"... let me see if I understand correctly...

If a normal tail is when the fly leg has a wave that dips below the rod leg, then your "inverted tail" would be a wave in the fly leg (which is below the rod leg in an under-slung loop) that would peak above the rod leg?

If I have that right, let me ask the main question... are we not using a horizontal rod plane for this pendulum cast? And, then again if so... how often do you see a normal tail in the standard perpendicular loop plane when casting from a horizontal rod plane?

To me, a tail is most common when rod plane and loop plane are both near perpendicular. The improper placement of the MCL when casting from horizontal rod plane results in a crossed path and eventually a curve. I don't think I have ever noticed a "tail", normal or inverted... its in a different plane.

Once again, color me confused... as usual.

[Paul Arden]

Let me draw some art

[Paul Arden]

Tip path vertical plane. No deviation in horizontal.

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Ahh... so much clearer now!

I'll just shut up and listen.

But, if we are going to talk about that S shaped tip path from the horizontal plane... has anyone ever tried to skip a fly? That path is what I have tried, but admittedly I gave it up as I could not get it under control.

[Paul Arden]

Very hit and miss for me too Poppers sometimes go in of course. It actually goes back to the conversation with Bernd when we started talking about tip paths and inverted loops. I find it much more effective to drive a fast side cast in low than trying to throw an inverted loop into place.

Parallel inverted loops for me have always been small stream casts. And that’s when Bernd started talking about S shape tip paths and so I took the lumiline out

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

Lasse,
I am expecting no less from you but presenting a nice tailing in an inverted loop in front of a blue wall. Make sure to give some extra line length for Paul.
Cheers
Bernd

Hi Bernd

Something like 15 years ago, Frank being Frank had an argument going here. I went out and spend a full day throwing upside down loops, and trying to throw a tail into it. I succeded twice in one day... but learnt a shitload about tails
To do one standing normal in front of the blue building and get it on camera would probably take more storeage than I have to make that tailing wave happen, you have to speed up the line in the transverse direction, in other words, its the dip, not the rise. And that is bloody fecking difficult to do in the inverted loop, and for a longer length of line for Paul, I give the same answer as I gave Frank when he dismissed hand casting as a valuable means to explain casting, as one couldnt double spey handcasting, and I said I could, to which I was told, well you can't do a 80 foot double spey.. I think you can guess my reply

Paul just needs to stand at the edge of the battleships roof, and point the rodtip down to the water and cast, then throw a tail and have a look

Cheers
Lasse

[Bernd Ziesche]

to make that tailing wave happen, you have to speed up the line in the transverse direction, in other words, its the dip, not the rise.

Mate, I am afraid I yet don't understand this.
I take it, you agree on how I see a tailing for an inverted loop in post 8 (my dawing), right?
If you accelerate back in a 45 degree off vertical (zero degree) rod plane (thus side casting) and create a dip before RSP1 and then lift the tip (let's say) a) by lifting your rod hand and b) changing back rod plane to maybe 55 degree, I think the picture I draw should happen. Of course my drawing is not 3 d, so the loop should be less in the vertical plane as it looks in the drawing.

Please explain further what is the difference here.
Thanks!
B

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

I would not call that a tail Bernd, but I can see why it might be considered so.

For me, a tail is a cast in any plane where the fly leg approaches the rod leg and may cross it, depending on severity of the tail. It becomes a problem when it causes a tangle or knot.

Cheers,
Graeme

Yeah... sorry... I am with Graeme here. The fly leg in Bernd's post #8 is not what I was picturing. What I saw in my mind had a mirror image of the fly leg and it intersected the rod leg above it.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Well, a tailing loop ALWAYS was defined as caused by a dip in the accelerational tip path within rod plane. Thus the oeak ofcthe resulting wave in the fly-leg can't be in opposite direction.
Since we mostly cast sideways (rod plane tilted down let's say 45 degrees) the wave in the fly-leg easily may cross the rod-leg. All you have to do is look down from a bridge.
Cheers
B
P.s.: Having the wave the other way round, I really don't think I can do that. Not even on purpose. My hand probably isn't fast enough in changing rod plane and back for example, I think. Remember how fast a slight dip in tip path happens. It would be a very different cause for me anyway.

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Well, a tailing loop ALWAYS was defined as caused by a dip in the accelerational tip path within rod plane. Thus the oeak ofcthe resulting wave in the fly-leg can't be in opposite direction.

Bernd,

I agree 100%... thats why I could not get my head around the "inverted" part.

And, BTW, I make your "birds eye view" tailing loop all the time when casting with a horizontal rod plane... not on purpose, mind you... it is a fault that I have to consciously attempt to avoid.

Now, your "side view" drawing I'll have to chew on for a while.

And, I still can't figure out Paul's drawings!