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Fly rod guide selection

Moderator: Torsten

Torsten
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Fly rod guide selection

#1

Post by Torsten »

This is a follow-up of the "Fly weight & drag" thread.

Gordy:
Thanks for posting that video. I wish that it had English subtitles, but was impressed with the detail that elite casters pay to their equipment.

Do you know if the huge first ring makes much of difference in the distance they get? I stopped using #20 stripper guide rings after Aitor's video convinced me large guides did not make much of a difference in flycasting.
Most of the casters use these huge guides, for 7,5 grams plug distance is a max. inner diameter of 50 mm allowed. There is no study that really proves the difference compared to a standard ring set. I know one competitor used larger SIC guides and had still pretty good results.

Fuji made a few high speed videos:


You can see there the line slap against the blank and the first guide - something similar for fly lines would be interesting.
I replaced the guides of a cheap #5 rod with single leg snakes and a #20 stripping guide, this setup shoots the line (subjectively) better/smoother than my Sage XP.

@all What do you think is the ideal guide setup?

Thanks,
Torsten
Bendix
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#2

Post by Bendix »

Hi

Let me start by saying that I am not very knowledgeable about the physics and theories around this subject.

But for my coastal fishing for Seatrout, where longer casts are often required, I prefer a large stripping guide. This is for the simple reason, that I find that slight tangles in my fly line often seem to get untangled by a large guide, when I shoot the line, so the cast will succeed.
I have no scientific proof of this, but it is something I often experience during normal fishing.

In regards to DH rods, I prefer large snake rings on the rod, and I try to avoid DH rods with single leg guides. Again, this is because for practical fishing, I find that the connections between my skagit head and sink tips slide better trough snake guides, when I fight a fish, and the rod is bend. With single leg guides, I find that the connection gets stuck, which could result in a lost fish.

But if your question was in regards to casting competitions, I have no experience or valuable input to give.

/Bendix
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gordonjudd
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#3

Post by gordonjudd »

Fuji made a few high speed videos:
Thorsten,
Thanks for finding this study. Their results with the large diameter guides makes me wonder if those huge rings are really effective.

Maybe John can show some videos of how the line they use (I doubt it is flurocarbon) feeds through those big rings and how long the line continues to spiral as it goes through the upper rings.

I wonder how they attached the camera to the rod to get those high speed video's? I wish they had the interest in doing something similar for fly casting.
This is for the simple reason, that I find that slight tangles in my fly line often seem to get untangled by a large guide, when I shoot the line, so the cast will succeed.
Bendix,
I don't know if you have had the interest to video the line choke at the first guide, but Aitor's video (that appears to no longer show up his Vimeo account) showing there was little or no difference of the line flow through large diameter butt guides made me stop using #20 guides on my rods.

Gordy
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Paul Arden
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#4

Post by Paul Arden »

In regards to DH rods, I prefer large snake rings on the rod, and I try to avoid DH rods with single leg guides. Again, this is because for practical fishing, I find that the connections between my skagit head and sink tips slide better trough snake guides, when I fight a fish, and the rod is bend. With single leg guides, I find that the connection gets stuck, which could result in a lost fish.
That’s very interesting. Lars ordered a HT6 with Snakes because he had the same issue when casting shooting heads with single legs. Since then we’ve fitted Snakes on quite a few rods. I have no idea how this happens.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#5

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Paul, angle of attack, a single leg is at a 90 degree angle to the connection, a snake is at 45 degrees.

Cheers
Lasse
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Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685

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John Waters
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#6

Post by John Waters »

Hi Gordy,

The Fuji "triangle and choke" basis of guide size and placement was filmed and promoted when they marketed their gold cermet guides many years ago. Those guides are no longer sold but the videos are the same. They are very effective in showing the line coiling through guides and slapping against the rod, but unfortunately, they do not show comparative distance results achieved using the same plug weight, same reel and the same rod but using the various guides sizes and profiles shown in the video. That is the key test because that is the desired output.

Tournament casters select gear that delivers the best results, sponsorships, pro staff etc are not worth a crumpet at a world championship if the gear is sub optimal for either the accuracy or the distance result required. Casters are pragmatic, if a competitor wins with an innovative technique, reel, rod, line, guide profile or set up or some other gear or movement option, you can bet everyone will fully test that innovation for themselves as soon as they are able. If results improve, it will be adopted, only results count. An observer can see clearly the spirals through the large guides and as the video shows, they continue along the rod, slapping both guides and rod blank, until the line exits the tip, however the plug goes further with big guides. I have experimented a lot with guides, and compared the distance achieved with large and small diameter guides, high versus low profile using the same rod, reel, line and plug. The guides shown have always delivered the longest distances. Experimenting with only a tip guide or only two guides is an interesting exercise. I believe it comes down to two outcomes and which one delivers longer distances. Having the line travel through the guides without slap versus not eliminating line slap but getting the line through the guides faster. At the moment, I set up for the latter.

I'll look forward to the next ICSF World championships but like all competitors, if another guide shape or profile delivered better results, I'd change in a instant.

Interesting comment about snake guides on fly rods. I swapped over to snake guides on a blank I am experimenting with for the Trout Distance and was pleasantly surprised with the distance achieved. I need to set up a proper test, i.e same rod, reel, line and conditions to test consistency but will do that.

I think Lasse is correct,

John
George C
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#7

Post by George C »

For what it is worth, here is a post copied from the rodbuilder.org site (march2020) that reflects on one builder's experience trying to optimize fly rod guide layout for competition (which discipline and for which caster was not specified). Unfortunately, no mention was made about collector guide size. I'd also note that 4mm ceramic guides (which will have about a 2.5mm ceramic ring ID) would not allow knot passage for most fishing applications. Still, some might find it interesting.

"...........
Chris Korich (Maxine McCormick and US Team coach) and I worked on rods for hours in summer 2018. Fascinating!

Some things we incorporated were:
. Shorter rods 8-8.5 ft.
. Stiffer tips (actually cutting an inch off the tip sometime stiffened the rod noticeably)
. Rods were two piece
. A big factor was guides. We used all Fuji (TLSG) Ti, SiC and/or Torzite insert single foot ring guides, Fuji Ti and SiC insert tip tops (casting rod tip tops). Fuji Ti, SiC insert stripping guide. All was geared to minimize weight and decreased friction. Tip section guides were as small as 4mm, several at this size and increasing to about 6 or 7mm before stripping guide. Number of guides usually one more than specified by rod manufacturer. Placement of guides using static technique. Another reason for single foot Fujis is to get the fly line off the rod blank much as possible when casting. Minimum epoxy, just cover threads (weight reduction).
. Rod/reel balance critical. Primary method was to match the reel to the rod to get balance.
. 1.5” dia. short butt section. It presses against under forearm to keep the rod straight while long distance casting.
.Fuji graphite spinning rod seats to minimize weight. Foam inserts to fit the rod blank OD.
. Custom cork only grip much like Fenwick design. Casting hand can move up and down grip as casting style and balance changes. Not locked in place like full wells and half wells designs.
. We even had one brand of tip section rod with another brand of butt section rod to get desired action......"
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gordonjudd
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#8

Post by gordonjudd »

they do not show comparative distance results achieved using the same plug weight, same reel and the same rod but using the various guides sizes and profiles shown in the video. That is the key test because that is the desired output.
John,
For sure that is the bottom line and indicates that line slap may not be as detrimental to impacting casting distance as I would have thought.

Gordy
John Waters
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#9

Post by John Waters »

Hi Gordy,

It would be great if we could isolate and measure the individual impediments to casting, rather than just do what I do and look at the net impact. It is only when we understand and measure causal issues that our gear and technique improves.

Always value this section of the Board, learnt so much from Daniel, yourself and the other contributors here. Some of the recommendations have pulled me up with a jolt on a number of occasions. Facts stand alone and are irrefutable, irrespective of whether your journey started at a casting pool, a river bank, sea shore or any other environment.

John
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Graeme H
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Re: Fly rod guide selection

#10

Post by Graeme H »

George C wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:28 am Some things we incorporated were:
. Shorter rods 8-8.5 ft.

. A big factor was guides. We used all Fuji (TLSG) Ti, SiC and/or Torzite insert single foot ring guides, Fuji Ti and SiC insert tip tops (casting rod tip tops). Fuji Ti, SiC insert stripping guide. All was geared to minimize weight and decreased friction. Tip section guides were as small as 4mm, several at this size and increasing to about 6 or 7mm before stripping guide. Number of guides usually one more than specified by rod manufacturer. Placement of guides using static technique. Another reason for single foot Fujis is to get the fly line off the rod blank much as possible when casting. Minimum epoxy, just cover threads (weight reduction).
I'm glad to read this. My rods are all similar to this when I get the chance to be selective on length and all my guides are as described here.

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI
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