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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

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Viking Lars
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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

#11

Post by Viking Lars » Sun May 05, 2019 6:10 pm

Argh - a lengthy and obviously very clever reply just went missing because I clicked the wrong button (which was obviously quite un-clever...). Here's the summary:

Doublehanders are good for a number of reason. For me the primary ones being easier casting and fishing with the vert fast sinking lines used in the Danish salmon rivers and more efficient fishing by being able to keep the line and fly clear from the weeds when fishing own bank. Also the heavier lines are an advantage in the often windy conditions in Western Denmark.

As far as rod power goes, you're fine with your singlehanders. I have landed 6-7kg salmon i Varde River on a 9'6" 6-wt (the fight took app. 7 minutes). I fish single handers every time the conditions allow it - I use a 10' 6-wt and a 9'6" 7-wt.

I think doublehanders might offer an advantage in steering around a fish when fighting it, but as far as rod power goes you're well off with your singlehanders.

Lars

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Lasse Karlsson
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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

#12

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sun May 05, 2019 8:21 pm

Simply put, we're at the wrong end of the lever when it comes to applying pressure :)

Double handlers are great for line control, not so much for applying pressure on a fish.

Have you got Michael Beck-Hansen book "størrelse er ikke alt"? He has a good graph of what 2 kilos of pressure from the angler at the butt produces at the tip...

And short of doing Marc's fight to the death :D just attach a spring scale to the leader and see how much pressure you can apply ;) just steer clear of high sticking, and you should be safe...

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Paul Arden
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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

#13

Post by Paul Arden » Mon May 06, 2019 2:43 am

Can someone measure up the pull with a DHD to what feels like max pressure at 45 and 90 degrees pls?

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Lasse Karlsson
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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

#14

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Mon May 06, 2019 7:57 am

How big a DHD are we talking about? 12, 14, 18 footer?
And arbitrary 5, 8, 11 weight :D

I'd be happy to do some numbers...

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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

#15

Post by Paul Arden » Mon May 06, 2019 8:03 am

It would be interesting to here all with angles of 45 and 90 respectively. With a 9’ 8WT I get 7-8lbs and 1,5lbs with those two angles. So the 8 will be a great comparison.

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johnnybg
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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

#16

Post by johnnybg » Mon May 06, 2019 7:31 pm

Thank you all for your detailed answers. They all helped.

I'll keep reading the thread to learn what numbers Lasse comes up with after testing his DHDs in 45° and 90°

BR
Johnny

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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

#17

Post by Paul Arden » Tue May 07, 2019 8:11 am

I know I was very surprised to find only about 1.5lbs with the single handed 8WT with what felt like extreme force at my end (I knew it would be low but I didn’t expect it to be that low). It was to the point where I started to worry about the rod breaking, but at what actual point that occurs I haven’t measured! I’ve never measured with a double handed rod either and so I have no idea if it is more or less than with the single handed rod.

I really think it’s a great experiment to do at home. When guiding I do this experiment with most newcomers to give them the idea of the sort of force you can apply directly through the hand and just how little it is at different rod angles. I first did this myself about 6 years ago and it totally changed the way I understood the fight.

Sakari went around the problem in a totally different manner and started using fibreglass butts to shorten the lever so that it’s very close to the hand. I’ve tried those rods and even have had one built for testing. Mind you it’s a totally different set of circumstances because he is using lighter terminal tackle and fighting bigger fish and bringing them up from Bluewater. I’ve gone a different way and am using tackle that can often stop a fish in its tracks. And when I think something is going to give I release totally. The interesting thing is that these fish only runs 3-4 metres and then must think that they are free because they stop running. It’s then that I apply max force again. I don’t know how many other species this will work for but also I don’t know many circumstances when you can use 40lb leader on 5KG fish! It would be interesting to play a Salmon this way; I think they’d go totally ballistic but also quit pretty fast. The important thing is that they never get momentum.

I know surprising few people who have measured the force applied at the fly. Mind you it took an unusual set of circumstances for me to get around to it.

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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

#18

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Tue May 07, 2019 9:23 am

I'll get some numbers tonight!

It's interesting measuring not only the force at the fly (was told about it ages ago, stick your fly lightly in an orange and then try to hook it with the rod at distance :D very interesting thing to do!) but also measuring how much force we have to apply at the handle to get that force at the fly :oh: I once measured it while doing ccs measurements on a "5" weight... 150 grams at the tip needed over 2 kilos pull at the handle...

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Bernd Ziesche
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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

#19

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Tue May 07, 2019 9:52 am

Hello Johnny,
What mainly tires out the salmon at the end of your line, is a) the level of force acting against the fish and b) the direction that force is acting at.
Comparing the level of force you add to the fish in regard of rod length, it's fair to summarize:
The shorter the rod, the more force you add. Take the line in your hand and you can pull the biggest salmon in immediately (unless something would break...).
What we have to understand is, that most double hand rods are made to cast heavier lines as those single hand rods, one would fish for Atlantic salmon. If you would take a single hand Tarpon fly rod, the salmon fight might be very short! But casting such a heavy stick (made to fish 12/13wt. fly lines) all day long and you may break down before any hookup! :p
In regard of the force you add to the rod, it's quite another force acting on the fish!
We have to take into account line diameter. Line surface means friction in the water. I often saw my dh fly line running downstream, while the salmon to my surprise was suddenly jumping upstream. Huge head shakes in such a situation and you may not feel much pressure on your rod , but the leader may break! That is because the salmon easily creates significant more force on the leader as may ever reach your rod. Having written all this, using a heavier fly line (dh rod) easily may add more force to the fish when running around.
In regard of direction I give to the force I put into the fight, with the dh rod I have more possibilities to change direction pulling against the direction, in which the fish moves. When talking about the Skjern river in Denmark... there is often grass/wead in the shallow water. With the DH rod I have better possibilties to keep my line out of it during the fight.
Huge head shakes will be dampened pretty well by a long DH rod. Another plus, I think. We have to take into account, that our typical hooks can be pulled straight sometimes.
I have landed Atlantic salmon both on dh rods (mostly) and on sh rods. If I could choose, which one to have on a huge fish: I'd go double in the Skjern river, that's for sure! Especially when comparing a sh made to fish 8 or 9 wt. single hand fly lines.
All that aside, I am pretty sure, most salmons getting lost due to a lack of keeping cool near the end of the fight. People start pulling too hard on the short line instead of just positioning the force directly against the fish (keeping the rod low , if possible) and wait for the fish to give up. That happens on both rods!
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Bernd
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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

#20

Post by Paul Arden » Tue May 07, 2019 9:59 am

What mainly tires out the salmon at the end of your line, is a) the level of force acting against the fish and b) the direction that force is acting at.
I think it’s c) the salmon that tires itself out. Mostly what we are doing with these fish is making them fight until they are tired and then we can net them. We are using very little force to make this happen.

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