Pairing lines to rods

[Boisker]

I’d completely agree Paul... I would say (not that I have any background info to base this on ) that your market would definitely be people who can cast to a reasonable standard, or have made the commitment to and see this as a first step to improving... not because the rod will make them a better caster, more along the lines of it’s a great rod and they are committing to a learning process to get the best out of it...
Sage as one of the big boys and well known makers will sell a good number of rods to people who aren’t good casters.. Jerry sort of refers to this in the podcast, the rod is designed with this in mind... supposedly suitable for poor to great
but not being a rod designer I have no knowledge as to whether that makes any difference to the final product, which is why I asked you the question.. is the end point likely to be the same

[Paul Arden]

I’d just rather teach them to cast better. That’s why every rod comes with a casting lesson. You’ve actually given me an idea for a great casting lesson. Give someone a rod and a bunch of different lines and teach them the adjustments. I reckon that would be a fantastic lesson.

Thanks, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

"Some of these lines on the market - you might as well just go spin fishing. It’s not an unrolling loop, it’s basically a short flexible float flying through the air. How you can actually learn good flycasting skills with that I have no idea. Fishing a bubble float and a fly is still fly fishing as far as I’m concerned. I really do mean that. But it’s making life a lot more difficult and you lose the advantages that a light unrolling loop gives".

It is all very confusing for those of us who are not experts like you guys. Reminds me of amateurs buying shafts for golf clubs without hitting a ball. Too many styles and combinations to make assumptions.

Last week I bought a 7wt SA Redfish line for my 7 wt rod at the suggestion of a friend. The first cast I made was at a fish on a flat. When the backcast ended I got a big jolt from the line. Felt awful. When the wind came up it was worse. I threw it in the trash when I got home.

Recently I've been experimenting with combos to use when making long casts to surface Cobia's cruising later this spring. I've never thrown a sinking line or sinking tip much so I tried poly sink leaders, sink tip lines, 250, 500 and 700 grain heads on lines etc....The two that worked best for me were the 250 grain (rated 7-9 wt rods) on a fast action 12 wt rod, and a listed 10 wt sinking head floating line that feels like an 11 wt line on a slow action 10 wt rod. Totally different type combinations yet both allowed me to easily get into the backing without lots of false casting which is important for an old fat ass like myself when balancing on a boat bobbing around in the chop in the Gulf of Mexico.

The 500 and 700 grain lines presented multiple problems for me. Might use them to make a fence or something.

I'm fortunate to have a bunch of older (new) lines to try I got from a friend who used to rep SA which makes this experimenting possible.

[Paul Arden]

I like that SA line! But I drop it one line rating. It’s great for the PUALD shots. The Infinity is a shortened up version of that.

Right lake is open again. Must sleep

Cheers, Paul

[nicholasfmoore]

Hi All,

Nice post, Carol! I agree, there are far too many variables and opinions. As you'll know, It's quite possible to cast a #5 line on a #10 rod, and a #10 line on a #5 rod if you adjust your stroke. I do think a good fishing rod should feel comfortable at all the fishing distances. However, if anglers haven't spent time building their foundation, then this is where the issues start.

Putting on a line too heavy to compensate for a fixed 10-2 arc, is akin to having the names of notes written on the clavier for the rest of a pianists life, constantly looking down to see where they are, like an infinite training wheel. If they spent the time learning the names and notes from the get go, they would progress much faster, and they can then move onto some very advanced stuff. One of the main barriers of good progress is a lack of motivation and practice, and this is true for any skill. Humans are programmed to take the path of least resistance, so this isn't surprising.

Let's say that a complete beginner bought a £165k Bosendorfer 290 imperial grand piano. It's a phenomenal instrument, however, most beginning pianists (anglers) want to play Rachmaninoff's piano concerto number 2 opus 18 before they even know where middle C is! They should be building good technique by playing scales and exercises (Bills 1' at a time in the casting world), and THEN they can progress onto increasingly harder pieces. There are no short cuts or substitutes to meaningful practice, it takes hard work, thought and discipline.

The spring theory and 10-2 lives on over here (as i'm sure it does elsewhere). Even a professional UK angler recommends beginners 'over line' to make it load and work better. WHY?!

All the best!

[Lasse Karlsson]

"Some of these lines on the market - you might as well just go spin fishing. It’s not an unrolling loop, it’s basically a short flexible float flying through the air. How you can actually learn good flycasting skills with that I have no idea. Fishing a bubble float and a fly is still fly fishing as far as I’m concerned. I really do mean that. But it’s making life a lot more difficult and you lose the advantages that a light unrolling loop gives".

It is all very confusing for those of us who are not experts like you guys. Reminds me of amateurs buying shafts for golf clubs without hitting a ball. Too many styles and combinations to make assumptions.

Last week I bought a 7wt SA Redfish line for my 7 wt rod at the suggestion of a friend. The first cast I made was at a fish on a flat. When the backcast ended I got a big jolt from the line. Felt awful. When the wind came up it was worse. I threw it in the trash when I got home.

Recently I've been experimenting with combos to use when making long casts to surface Cobia's cruising later this spring. I've never thrown a sinking line or sinking tip much so I tried poly sink leaders, sink tip lines, 250, 500 and 700 grain heads on lines etc....The two that worked best for me were the 250 grain (rated 7-9 wt rods) on a fast action 12 wt rod, and a listed 10 wt sinking head floating line that feels like an 11 wt line on a slow action 10 wt rod. Totally different type combinations yet both allowed me to easily get into the backing without lots of false casting which is important for an old fat ass like myself when balancing on a boat bobbing around in the chop in the Gulf of Mexico.

The 500 and 700 grain lines presented multiple problems for me. Might use them to make a fence or something.

I'm fortunate to have a bunch of older (new) lines to try I got from a friend who used to rep SA which makes this experimenting possible.

Hi Phil

While I disagree with Paul on the quoted text, mostly because he's wrong as usual, but also because he can't even back up his own statement with an example

Sinking lines move faster as they have less surface area, and that makes the heavier ones quite bitchy to cast, and grain lines usually are quite short too, not helping the task if one tries to overhead cast them. Lots of energy left in the line makes them kick like a mule, and taking the power out of the cast, means the just drag along the floor. Falsecasting requires a casting helmet and full body armour (almost took my leg of with a 900 grain shootinghead once, auch) If you're used to throwing floaters, often they feel heavier because of the excess energy, so downlining is not a bad idea. 250 is the upper end of a true 9 wt line, and most grain lines have a 30 foot head (or used to, haven't checked in a while so might be completly wrong now...) 500 grains is a 14 weight and 700 is off the charts. There's a few fishing purposes I can think of, but think it's something mostly for maschocists I prefer to speycast those beasts. Or tame them with huge flies...

Cheers
Lasse

[nicholasfmoore]

I’d just rather teach them to cast better. That’s why every rod comes with a casting lesson. You’ve actually given me an idea for a great casting lesson. Give someone a rod and a bunch of different lines and teach them the adjustments. I reckon that would be a fantastic lesson.

Wonderfull lesson plan

Going slightly off topic I think there are two sorts of anglers. One group don't practice because they don't want to, and the other group don't practice because they don't know how! The first group are happy with where they are in the dreyfus model, however, there might be a time when they need to improve/work on their skills to cast further, as the fish have been pushed further out (for example). They think that it takes too much effort/time to practice, so they take shortcuts with overweighted lines etc, and the points already mentioned, to make up for the problems in their foundations. This presents a fishing problem, especially if you want to fish small flies and light tippets. The second group are stuck at a level in the dreyfus model, and they can't improve because they don't know how to practice, so i think we could possible make a free resource for effective practice sessions which are structured, with exercises.

If you practice incorrectly, then all you are ever going to be is wrong. If you have faults, then you need to work on them by forcing your body to make a change by using correct repetition to engrain good form, and this is hard work! Now, progression and motivation go hand in hand, so lets explore some common barriers to both groups;

1. The number one barrier to progression is A LACK OF PRACTICE AND MOTIVATION
2. Competing hobbies
3. Too busy with work
4. Lack of funds for proper lessons

Progression is reliant on dependant (with a teacher) and independent learning with a structured lesson and practice session. These should both have a beginning, middle and an end;

Structured Lesson

1. Diagnosis of faults
2. Challenge level
3. Skill learning
4. Correct mindset

Structured practice session

1. Diagnosis of faults
2. Challenge level
3. REINFORCEMENT OF SKILLS
4. Correct mindset
5. Fun ending activity

Reinforcing skills is important, this is why top level casters/musicians etc practice to keep up their skill set. Your first cast/piece should be technically excellent, if you have not practiced for weeks, it takes you a while to get back into it, and you loose the edge. Not good!

Intrinsic motivation is the key to progression;

1. Join in with like minded casters/anglers
2. Learn new casts by yourself
3. Be able to cast efficiently, with minimum effort
4. Make some nice loops etc

You have to obviously want to improve your casting, and that is the difference between the two groups of anglers. But, why do people lose motivation and stop their own progressions?

Being anxious, confused, bored overwhelmed disheartened and unhappy with their ability leads to demotivation. They may feel like;

1. It's too difficult for them
2. Don't seem to be getting anywhere no matter what they try
3. May feel like everyone else is better than them

A virtuous circle consists of; Learning - progression - self esteem - motivation

So, progression can be thought of in terms of a ladder with different levels of skill attainment with depth and breadth. This is achieved with dependant and independent learning, which eventually leaves the student with self reliant learning by self assessing, and that is an important skill.

All the best!

[Boisker]

I’d just rather teach them to cast better. That’s why every rod comes with a casting lesson. You’ve actually given me an idea for a great casting lesson. Give someone a rod and a bunch of different lines and teach them the adjustments. I reckon that would be a fantastic lesson.

Thanks, Paul

I think it’s a great idea Paul...
After about 5 years fly fishing and having developed into an average but not terrible caster I decided to start to sort out my casting 6 years ago; I met up with Pete Tyjas, a friend and guide/casting instructor who I had got to know on a forum. We met up and he brought down about 6 different 9’ 4w rods and from memory 3 or 4 different lines... it was a real eye opener and a great way to start thinking about casting, I’d never appreciated the difference the line made until then... and as you say it’s a great way to learn (or at least start to ) how to adapt between different rods and lines.
We’ve done it a few times since and I always enjoy it

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

I like that SA line! But I drop it one line rating. It’s great for the PUALD shots. The Infinity is a shortened up version of that.

Right lake is open again. Must sleep

Cheers, Paul

You must be tired... I think ya got those line's head lengths backwards.

Redfish 30' / Infinity 50'

But, yeah... drop at least one number on the box.

[Paul Arden]

So it is, Gary. I didn’t explain that very well With the Redfish the section at the front before the rear taper appears to be longer. Certainly for longer distance with the Redfish on a PUALD shooting shot I must start with more line on the water. Ie 3m instead of 2.

However I also noticed when I first cast the Infinity was that sometimes it would “get away from me” whereas the redfish didn’t. Maybe there has been some changes. I’ll find out

Cheers, Paul