Viking Lars wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:21 am
- This made we wonder - how much force is needed to impart an aggressive jump to the fly?
Good questions, mate! (hello Lars
)
When I was fishing for Bonefish more than 2 decades ago, I learnt how to turn a Bone 180° in his direction (after not having got into a proper casting position quickly enough). Mostly this was needed, while the Bones were swimming fast with the incoming tide.
I needed one strong (sharp) pull. If it was just a little softer, nearly no Bone would turn. I couldn't tell, if they did not feel the fly in their back (about 2 to 5m behind the fish), when not pulling truly strong, or if it just wasn't telling them, that there was easy bait worth to turn maybe. But I realized clearly, how big the reactions depended on matching the strength of pull precisely. After those fish turned I spooked many when doing the same strong pull again! Now it had to be little less strong.
Since that time I always focused on what sort of pulls would cause what reaction. On pike for example it can be (and often is) a huge difference (15 in 2 hours or zero!), if I pull truly strong (sharp) or little softer. If you have not tried this yet. Do it! You will be very surprised soon.
How much force in detail... different from situation to situation and species of fish to species of fish.
I studied this a lot especially on Pike, Zander, Asp, Sea trout and for sure always when sight fishing for whatever species of fish. The differencies in the fish his reaction very often were remarkable.
Viking Lars wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:21 am
Is that force enough for stretch to have a noticeable impact? I am interested in how you tested this, Bernd. And at what distances? As you noted your self a flyline with stretch stretches further the longer it is. How much stretch can we really impart of a fly line with a say 1m long sharp pull, with only the water acting against us?
We have to differentiate between a lot of factors. Let's start with stretch in general (not fly line stretch only). When I fish for asp using a shock absorber of 20cm stretch length, it softens fly movement. How do I know? I see it and I get a very clear answer of many fish (strike vs. no strike). Of course the fly itself can provide more or less resistance having an impact here, too. Your thoughts here are correct.
Before I found Drennan power gum, I built several different shock absorbers with elastic rubber band. It was possible to break some stripping wise sometimes. This already showed me, that my pulls went right into the stretch! They were not too easy stretchable, but breaking strength was way too low. To be fair, I used quite some heavy flies sometimes.
How much stretch can we add to a fly line stripping wise you asked. Not much, but 5cm softens our pull significantly - especially on short distance pulls. I have zero doubt here.
Viking Lars wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:21 am
And when you say you get fewer bites when fishing a line with stretch, are you really experiencing noticeably less takes than with fishing non-stretch cores?
When I change from asp (using a shock absorber) to Zander = sometimes just changing the leader (no shock absorber) and forgot to remove the shock absorber, I 100% failed on Zander. A shock absorber makes it mostly impossible to feel the take and to set the hook in case the fish keeps the fly. For asp it's amazing (hard to believe for me often) how a tiny tiny increase in stripping force (sharpness) changes everything from zero take into 8 in a row. I have experienced this more than 100 times in the past maybe 10 years. No doubt the differency between adding a 20cm stretchable shock absorber or not is detactable in the fish his reaction.
Viking Lars wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:21 am
I agree that in many applications low-stretch to a certain degree preferable. It stands to reason that less stretch makes it easier to set the hook. The obvious question then is how much force is really needed for the hook point to penetrate and does this amount of force really have that big an impact on stretching a fly line? And of course - does the amount a stress a fish imparts on the lines when taking the fly really make us detact noticeably less strikes?
Try this:
Put your 2 lines all length on the grass. Ask your daughter to give similiar pulls on both a) low strech fly line and b) high stretch fly line. Ask her to add both soft and strong pulls both on short distance pull and on a longer distance pull. I bet you'll agree with me to be able to tell which line it is even when blind folded. What force you'll feel clearly differs from line to line. I of course know, that you'll tell me to hold the end of a line is different from having just a fly hanging to it yet being free in the water. And I agree of course. Try to hold the end of the line very softly and tell your daugther to start with very gentle pulls. You'll feel it!
Bottom line:
I know too well where you are coming from, because I was very surprised myself how big these impacts are!
After I found all this I checked with spin fishermen again. Well, the experts here have all figured this a long time ago. We missed it!
Regards
Bernd
P.s.: Let me offer one more experience: I saw many fish taking my fly without being able to feel the take. Happened with large pike, Zander, asp, Atlantic salmon, Sea trout and more. We clearly miss a hell lot of takes. Remember the cause of Czech nymphing... When I hold my friend Hansi his dropshot rod to feel a Zander take/strike, a 40cm Zander feels like for me 80cm on fly. The bigger they are, the stronger they suck in the bait. My line system absorbs a lot still. He thinks in terms of 0,25mm nylon vs. 0.12mm "fireline" to decide weather he misses a lot of takes or not. Our problems are much bigger!