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Discussion On Nymph Indicator Leaders (Blog post from Lars)

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Phil31
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Discussion On Nymph Indicator Leaders (Blog post from Lars)

#1

Post by Phil31 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:21 am

I learnt a lot from reading this post. I never knew that braided/furled leaders even existed. But I did like the idea as I'm not much of a fan of yarn/bobber style indicators. So I was never really aware of these thread based braided lines could be used as an indicator. The closest I had gone to this in the past was just watching the end of my fly line for a strike.

I can't buy these where I am so I will be making my own. I tried my own version today using just straight 20lb bright coloured backing as an inline leader/indicator but before I used it I soaked it in silicone (Selleys Water Shield Spray that I have as a liquid in a jar). I managed to fish and detect strikes with beads up to 3.5mm (haven't tried larger) and had a productive hour or so with the system. Interestingly when it did sink it was usually from the floating line side getting dragged under in swirly currents not the weight of the fly. And I intentionally went to a pretty deep pool to test this system.

Really looking forward to making some properly braided thread leaders rather than just the backing system as it would float (aswell as capture the floatant) and cast better I believe.

Three things I love about this

1) It casts great
2) It's stealthy (i'll be making some in white)
3) it detects strikes well

So a big thanks to Viking Lars for sharing. I thought it might be of value to know that the silicone spray makes for a great floatant. I have sold yarn indicators in the past and always had people telling me they floated the best and longest (most are done with mucilin). If you don't already use it just get a can of it, spray it all into a sealable glass jar, dip anything that you want to be water resistant in the mixture but always remember to shake off and squeeze out any excess before leaving it to dry. Anything you treat with this stuff floats great.

Also, what are others doing for fly line dressing/floatant? I often have mine sinking in parts

Thanks again!
Phil Connor

Based in Turangi NZ

On The Fly NZ
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Re: Discussion On Nymph Indicator Leaders (Blog post from Lars)

#2

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:26 am

Oh wow Phil. You’re about to make a good friend on the Board - Keith/Chess! He is making and developing these too (although not strike indicator ones!). I’ve been testing some over here. Very interesting indeed.

As well as floating dressings there are dressings to stiffen/ add weight/ increase sinking. From what I can tell it’s another obsession! But also a good one :)

Cheers, Paul

PS if you missed Lars’ page, Keith, it’s here:
https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... or-leaders
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Re: Discussion On Nymph Indicator Leaders (Blog post from Lars)

#3

Post by Chess » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:45 pm

Hey, great to see another devotee to the furling/braiding caper. Yes, indicators for furled leaders - just give a section a reverse twist to open the strands, insert a bit of coloured, floating yarn or foam material, it twists back to grab it and bingo a strike indicator. Set it at any depth, easy to change too. Of course a section of brightly coloured floating threads can be made and loop to looped in too.
The options available with furling are endless really, especially materials to use. It's all governed by the basic characteristics of the fibres, & boy there sure are some space age threads out there, bit pricey though. Some really need oiling with linseed oil concoctions with varnish (silk for example, hollow braided, plus polyester stiffens up nicely too), others with silicone based products etc. Plus easy to sink or float them. One basic recipe for floatant/dressing is paraffin, mineral oil & vaseline. Ratios are even amounts of each for a stiff paste. For runny as in a squeeze bottle, add more vaseline. Off course you can base it in white spirits too, as they do for dressing dry flies. Double boilers are used and of course, heating any flammable liquid comes with potential hazards, common sense with safety is expected. I add a touch of carnauba wax in mine, plus a little bit of bees wax too, makes it harder, which makes it polishable = slicker. Don't add too much carnauba or it can get brittle & crack, plus it sets like concrete if you use too much.
Splurge with the imagination, trial and error your way forward.

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Re: Discussion On Nymph Indicator Leaders (Blog post from Lars)

#4

Post by Phil31 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:40 pm

Chess wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:45 pm
Hey, great to see another devotee to the furling/braiding caper. Yes, indicators for furled leaders - just give a section a reverse twist to open the strands, insert a bit of coloured, floating yarn or foam material, it twists back to grab it and bingo a strike indicator. Set it at any depth, easy to change too. Of course a section of brightly coloured floating threads can be made and loop to looped in too.
The options available with furling are endless really, especially materials to use. It's all governed by the basic characteristics of the fibres, & boy there sure are some space age threads out there, bit pricey though. Some really need oiling with linseed oil concoctions with varnish (silk for example, hollow braided, plus polyester stiffens up nicely too), others with silicone based products etc. Plus easy to sink or float them. One basic recipe for floatant/dressing is paraffin, mineral oil & vaseline. Ratios are even amounts of each for a stiff paste. For runny as in a squeeze bottle, add more vaseline. Off course you can base it in white spirits too, as they do for dressing dry flies. Double boilers are used and of course, heating any flammable liquid comes with potential hazards, common sense with safety is expected. I add a touch of carnauba wax in mine, plus a little bit of bees wax too, makes it harder, which makes it polishable = slicker. Don't add too much carnauba or it can get brittle & crack, plus it sets like concrete if you use too much.
Splurge with the imagination, trial and error your way forward.
Thanks Chess, I did read your Furling topic in the board after I posted this yeterday and I'm very impressed with the setup and knowledge you have about the furling process. I'm looking at making my own smaller setup just for leaders but I'm sure it may grow into an obsession of making long lines as you are. Don't be surprised if I come to you with a few questions! It looks all rather complicated to me at the moment.
Phil Connor

Based in Turangi NZ

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Re: Discussion On Nymph Indicator Leaders (Blog post from Lars)

#5

Post by Phil31 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:44 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:26 am
Oh wow Phil. You’re about to make a good friend on the Board - Keith/Chess! He is making and developing these too (although not strike indicator ones!). I’ve been testing some over here. Very interesting indeed.

As well as floating dressings there are dressings to stiffen/ add weight/ increase sinking. From what I can tell it’s another obsession! But also a good one :)

Cheers, Paul

PS if you missed Lars’ page, Keith, it’s here:
https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... or-leaders
Yea I am amazed at the back yard operation Chess has. I'm going to set up a smaller one for myself just for leaders (thats how the obsession starts I'm sure). When I was researching I saw that tenkara lines are mostly furled.
Phil Connor

Based in Turangi NZ

On The Fly NZ
https://ontheflynz.com/

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Re: Discussion On Nymph Indicator Leaders (Blog post from Lars)

#6

Post by Chess » Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:21 pm

A whole new world is going to open up for you. It's pioneer stuff you're venturing into and there's frustrations and rewards. I'm more concentrating on leaders too right now with different materials. I've found 9-10' is the best to concentrate on, you can always cut them down, but they are long enough to affect flight and show their looping, energy transfer potential. Treat what you read/see about furling on the net with some caution - only by personal practical application and fish in net does the correct procedures come about. There's a few technical points to come to terms with & understand, such as correct tension to furl at for different materials and eliminating inherit twist that occurs sometimes (inexplicably at times it seems) on longer lines. It seems to indicate to me better quality machinery and components are required. Keep notes that are understandable to you long after you've forgotten what you did. What happens is suddenly on the water or the grass you'll notice a characteristic you'll really like or can be improved upon - you'll need to "remember" what you did earlier!
For simplicity, I practice and develop tapers with Hemingworth Machine Embroidery Polyester Thread 1000m. Ebay has it and is cheap. It comes in a really cool plastic covering cone that saves a lot of hassles with bobbins and such and a lot less "messes and tangles." Polyester embroidery thread is good stuff for trout leaders but when soaked in warmed, boiled linseed oil with a little varnish it stiffens up wonderfully, gains weight and seals and preserves the thread (that's how silk lines are treated). It's casting, turn over characteristics become more positive. Multiple coats changes it again. Takes a bit of a wait for the coatings to cure but I found a dehydrator speeds things along. Oiled & dressed polyester leaders imo are brilliant for dry fly, have good breaking strain and lands like a butterfly if you get the coating and taper right. They last well too, should get a season out of one well made, maybe more. You'll hear people say, "oh but furled leaders spray water about!" So do sinking lines/tips and normal leaders as well to a degree. Who hasn't false casted to dry a fly out? It's a small compromise compared to be positive aspects of furled leader imo.
Sure, I'll try to answer your questions. I'm sort of new to this stuff too but served a certain type of apprenticeship with lots of wasted thread to work a few things out. You'll hit a point where the concept of furling shows you "big-time," the unlimited options you truly have and your imagination is your only limiting factor. Keep it simple and fun is my advice. The fish are the only judge if you got it right! Oh furling technology has been around since the pharaohs first discovered peacock feathers were good for air conditioning. All we're doing is putting a taper into it. It's rope making technology that is thousands of years old and the same principles apply today.

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Re: Discussion On Nymph Indicator Leaders (Blog post from Lars)

#7

Post by Chess » Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:41 am

One last thing at this time, my 'ying & yang' opinion only. Furled leaders are a part of a system of presentation, but the leader is important. They are what present the tippet & fly.
Paul opened my eyes up to the modern line and rod manufacturing products of today and matching lines to the over stiff rods of today is very different than back in the days when you didn't have a plethora of options in rods/lines to choose from. It's marketing gone mad!
After over 30+ years of waving a fly rod about I recently had my first casting lesson from Paul over the net. Didn't I have egg on my face (personally), Paul was very gracious, but wow what a difference now I've had a few bad habits sorted out. I'm on the road to bigger and better fishing experiences.
What got me into furling was local, saltwater bream! Cheeky bloody intelligent fish, especially in the shallows in summer when they chase prawns and their dorsal fins break the surface. Damn near impossible not to spook 'em with line flash/splash. So after a lot of frustration and failures I reversed the formula of my approach to them. I know the habits & behavior of the fish and the type of flies they take. Found out by hiding back in the bushes, bank casting where it's just a short section of leader and tippet you let hit the water. I decided to start with: what sort leader is needed? Not the rod or line. Now I'm building, by trial & error a system that matches the leader, which will be about 25' with a lightly dressed shrimp pattern or missionary type fly # 6-12. Thus far an old Loomis IMX 9' 4wt has stood out the most appropriate (now my distance casting has improved I have more confidence with it to do the job) and to be honest the line is almost irrelevant, it's the leader that casts. It'll probably work out to be great for trout but I'm not interested - just fooling bream in knee deep water in summer is my focus. I've had to create my own leader first, there's nothing on the market I'm happy with.
Such are the things that buzz around between my ears.

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Re: Discussion On Nymph Indicator Leaders (Blog post from Lars)

#8

Post by Phil31 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:56 am

Chess wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:41 am
One last thing at this time, my 'ying & yang' opinion only. Furled leaders are a part of a system of presentation, but the leader is important. They are what present the tippet & fly.
Paul opened my eyes up to the modern line and rod manufacturing products of today and matching lines to the over stiff rods of today is very different than back in the days when you didn't have a plethora of options in rods/lines to choose from. It's marketing gone mad!
After over 30+ years of waving a fly rod about I recently had my first casting lesson from Paul over the net. Didn't I have egg on my face (personally), Paul was very gracious, but wow what a difference now I've had a few bad habits sorted out. I'm on the road to bigger and better fishing experiences.
What got me into furling was local, saltwater bream! Cheeky bloody intelligent fish, especially in the shallows in summer when they chase prawns and their dorsal fins break the surface. Damn near impossible not to spook 'em with line flash/splash. So after a lot of frustration and failures I reversed the formula of my approach to them. I know the habits & behavior of the fish and the type of flies they take. Found out by hiding back in the bushes, bank casting where it's just a short section of leader and tippet you let hit the water. I decided to start with: what sort leader is needed? Not the rod or line. Now I'm building, by trial & error a system that matches the leader, which will be about 25' with a lightly dressed shrimp pattern or missionary type fly # 6-12. Thus far an old Loomis IMX 9' 4wt has stood out the most appropriate (now my distance casting has improved I have more confidence with it to do the job) and to be honest the line is almost irrelevant, it's the leader that casts. It'll probably work out to be great for trout but I'm not interested - just fooling bream in knee deep water in summer is my focus. I've had to create my own leader first, there's nothing on the market I'm happy with.
Such are the things that buzz around between my ears.
Thanks alot for the pointers and advice. Im sure it will be very handy for me. What different materials/threads are you using for your leaders currently? Today I was playing with some hand furled monofilament leaders but would like to start from thread if I can. Also what colours do you find helps being stealth? I am targeting very smart edge cruising browns. If they see your line leader or tippet they will not be interested. It's also at very short distance which is why I want a leader that can be cast well without much fly line to aid the presentation.
Phil Connor

Based in Turangi NZ

On The Fly NZ
https://ontheflynz.com/

Phil31
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Re: Discussion On Nymph Indicator Leaders (Blog post from Lars)

#9

Post by Phil31 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:20 am

Also chess do you have any good resources or website that explain how to use the board/jig?
Phil Connor

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Re: Discussion On Nymph Indicator Leaders (Blog post from Lars)

#10

Post by Chess » Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:26 am

Good questions. On the table I have many varieties of mono and maxima chameleon (my long term trusted leader material) in many sizes, fluro leader material, polyester, bonded polyester, bonded nylon, keylar, braid of many types and fluro 3lb line (that shows great promise), oh, and a 2000yd spool of 60 year old silk, saving that for when I know how to use it.
Colour I like to keep in the greenish, cahill zone, apart from fluro clear. Funny thing with bream is chartreuse doesn't seem to worry them very much. I surmise it's a colour that doesn't "threaten" them or it blends well with the underwater water visuals. I use it a lot in my flies. I haven't had opportunity to fish the fresh since taking up furling, out of season mostly and the horrible bushfires and then the droughts before that and now covid restrictions. Geezers...
What I'm surmising is and have developed some of the way is a long thin leader tapering into a single strand of say 4-5lb fluro from the leader loop/ring and then step the tippet down to 4-5x. It's all variable lengths and maybe I don't need a stepped down tippet - it depends on the mood of the fish, the scenario in front of you and how good a caster you are. I really hear you with the situation of tippet shy fish, like bream are too when in the shallows away from cover. Sight fishing might be the only option but you've already got the "ask" of what furling can possibly do. The line becomes almost irrelevant at those ranges and you don't want its splash anyway. Sort of like a fine, mini shooting head with just enough body to flex the rod and turn over to deliver the fly. Hence the older 4wt is looking good for me. I have a 3wt but it's only 6' 6" and lacks power. Hope I don't have to end up buying a another rod for this venture.
I've got a 3 strand furling machine, but do 2 strand leaders as well with it. 3 strand gives a rounder profile though and seems to reduced the inherent twist of mono. I'm learning all the time and have quite a few failures in what I thought would work.
What I found is the thinner the thread/line to start the better and adjust diameters with the amount of loops. There's a fair bit to know and get right with furling. Hence the better caster you are the better it all performs.
That's my rave in writing. Lots of significance and theory, but as I said it's pioneer stuff!

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