A different (?) view on rod-design.

[RSalar]

Hi Ron,

Casting is the same as serving a tennis ball. The racket moves the ball, the player moves the racket. In casting, as Daniel describes, the rod moves the line, the caster moves the rod. In both cases what matters is the movement employed by the player or caster to move the racket or rod.

John

Hi John,

I think that bend matters, that is my perception and I believe that it can be proven scientifically (of course other things matter too -- lot's of things matter -- even mental stuff like belief in a perception, your temperament and attitude, etc). And for Merlin I would say that my only premise is that "bend matters" -- It matters in all types of casting -- I never said there is one amount of bend that is optimal for every person and every situation. All I am saying is that "bend matters." Maybe to help clarify what I mean I should define each word. "Bend" to me is synonymous with flex and stiffness. Stiffness is the thing that controls how much a rod bends or flexes. So if stiffness matter then bend matters. "Matters" means that it has some effect on the performance of the rod. It could be a very small effect or it could be a large effect, but even the tiniest effect is an effect. So if the stiffness of the rod has an effect on the rod's performance then you could say the same thing simply by stating, "bend matters."

Let's see if bend matters when it comes to tennis rackets. I found this to be interesting:

"When purchasing or evaluating a new tennis racquet, one of the many specifications you’ll encounter is tennis racquet stiffness or flex."

https://tenniscompanion.org/tennis-racq ... 20racquet.

So I would say that "bend matters" when it comes to tennis rackets too.

Have a great day!

Ron

[RSalar]

Hi Ron,

1) On the contrary, serious competitors do try the same equipment that the winner used and compare the performance impact. If performance improves, guess what rod they will use at the next competition? If their performance degrades, guess what rod they will not use in their next competition?

2) Of course casters test a variety of equipment and find the one that is optimises their individual results.

My best wishes,

John

Hi John,

I added the numbers above to help sperate what I think are two very different ways of choosing equipment. #1 is seen a lot especially in amateur sports. Weekend golfers, tennis player, shooters, etc -- they blame their results on the equipment and are constantly following whatever the winners are using and switch to that brand or type of gear. But wouldn't you agree that is a futile effort -- or at least admit that is not the best way to choose one's sporting equipment? I think your #2 is the correct way to determine what the best equipment is for your personal physical ability and style. And since a rod's bend is one of the main attributes of a fly rod, I remain convinced that it matters. What are the attributes of a fly rod that matter: I would say, weight, length, guides, grip/handle, and stiffness/flex/bend. (in no particular order.) It would be fun to see how you (and others) would rank those attributes or add to the list or remove attributes that don't matter.

All the best,

Ron

[Paul Arden]

Hi chaps,

Let’s see if I can find some agreement here. Of course bend matters it was about 20 years ago when the “Big Spring” belief was put to rest on Sexyloops. Unfortunately despite this, the view/belief is still out there in a fair bit of the fly fishing world at large — that fly casting is about loading the rod, then stopping the rod, allowing the rod to unload and propel the line. Furthermore you still read that hauling works by increasing the rod load and sometimes even that the anchor in the Roll Cast loads the rod. Quite erroneous of course. But it’s in books too, so one can understand that this belief still exists amongst people who don’t read Sexyloops for example.

And it’s because of this, that any time we hear the words “rod loading” little alarm bells set off!

Rod bend achieves several important things. The first is that it can turn rotation at the butt into a straight line at the rod tip. And the second is that it allows us to apply more force during the casting stroke; bend according to Gordy, allows us to effectively double the amount of force that we can apply during the casting stroke (if I recall correctly). The third thing that bend achieves is that it stores energy during the Casting Stroke that is delivered later in the Casting Stroke. And finally bend makes it easier to stop the rod because we stop the rod from the rod butt upwards and not all of the lever simultaneously.

I don’t agree 100% with some of what Lasse writes resulting from his two rod experiments and think that relative stiffness, line weights and variable casting arc is not only highly significant to tip path but is essential to how the line is propelled. But I agree with quite a lot of what Lasse writes otherwise. And his experiments are highly illuminating.

So for me it’s not one thing or another, and I don’t think anyone is truly saying that it is. It’s just that there are levels of significance in the whole scheme of things. I think bend matters, absolutely! But so to does leverage, timing, casting arc and so on. How critical is an exact bend? Not very! But under the conditions that Ron is suggesting, ie competition, then everything matters.

Instead of optimal bend, optimal stiffness for the task at hand might get more agreement?

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Hi Ron,

Casting is the same as serving a tennis ball. The racket moves the ball, the player moves the racket. In casting, as Daniel describes, the rod moves the line, the caster moves the rod. In both cases what matters is the movement employed by the player or caster to move the racket or rod.

John

Hi John,

I think that bend matters, that is my perception and I believe that it can be proven scientifically (of course other things matter too -- lot's of things matter -- even mental stuff like belief in a perception, your temperament and attitude, etc). And for Merlin I would say that my only premise is that "bend matters" -- It matters in all types of casting -- I never said there is one amount of bend that is optimal for every person and every situation. All I am saying is that "bend matters." Maybe to help clarify what I mean I should define each word. "Bend" to me is synonymous with flex and stiffness. Stiffness is the thing that controls how much a rod bends or flexes. So if stiffness matter then bend matters. "Matters" means that it has some effect on the performance of the rod. It could be a very small effect or it could be a large effect, but even the tiniest effect is an effect. So if the stiffness of the rod has an effect on the rod's performance then you could say the same thing simply by stating, "bend matters."

Let's see if bend matters when it comes to tennis rackets. I found this to be interesting:

"When purchasing or evaluating a new tennis racquet, one of the many specifications you’ll encounter is tennis racquet stiffness or flex."


So I would say that "bend matters" when it comes to tennis rackets too.


Ron

Thanks Ron, I would very much like to read the scientific proof you refer to, above.

Enjoyed reading your reference about tennis racquets. Correct me if I am wrong but my synopsis of the article was that it referred to the following criteria.

1. "Control"
2. "Feel or Touch" and equates stiff racquets to being "crisp or lively", whilst flexible racquets are "plush or stable".
3. "Comfort"

Are not each of the quoted terms subjective and hence all about perception? That is my point, any comparison of a fly rod action or bend is subjective. What I think is stiff you may view as bendy or vice versa. That is why in Norway and Estonia there will be nearly as many rod actions as there are competitors.

I like the summary used by the article's author.

"What’s more, two different racquets with nearly identical stiffness ratings can feel very different for the same player, so your opinion will come into play as you begin to trial racquets."

and,

"Moreover, one player may find that a racquet with a higher stiffness rating plenty comfortable, while another may find the same racquet harsh and uncomfortable to play with for an extended period.”

I could replace "racquet" with "fly rod bend profile" in both quotes and they would be equally correct and relevant.

As I've said in previous posts, IMHO what matters is how you create the bend in a fly rod, not the bend itself.

We can agree to disagree but would welcome any peer reviewed, scientific based research you have on the subject. I would refer to it in some research I am undertaking currently.

Thanks in advance,

John

[John Waters]

Hi Ron,

1) On the contrary, serious competitors do try the same equipment that the winner used and compare the performance impact. If performance improves, guess what rod they will use at the next competition? If their performance degrades, guess what rod they will not use in their next competition?

2) Of course casters test a variety of equipment and find the one that is optimises their individual results.

My best wishes,

John

Hi John,

I added the numbers above to help sperate what I think are two very different ways of choosing equipment. #1 is seen a lot especially in amateur sports. Weekend golfers, tennis player, shooters, etc -- they blame their results on the equipment and are constantly following whatever the winners are using and switch to that brand or type of gear. But wouldn't you agree that is a futile effort -- or at least admit that is not the best way to choose one's sporting equipment? I think your #2 is the correct way to determine what the best equipment is for your personal physical ability and style. And since a rod's bend is one of the main attributes of a fly rod, I remain convinced that it matters. What are the attributes of a fly rod that matter: I would say, weight, length, guides, grip/handle, and stiffness/flex/bend. (in no particular order.) It would be fun to see how you (and others) would rank those attributes or add to the list or remove attributes that don't matter.

All the best,

Ron

Thanks Ron, again we can agree to disagree on #1. World casting championship competitors do thoroughly review their gear against that used by others. It is a very professional activity to undertake in any performance assessment. Consider the evolution of different gear and its adoption by casters (and fisher persons) in recent decades. I did not mention the concept of blaming performance on gear. I suspect that is not the case with world casting competitors, it certainly is not the case in the ones I know. Rather, it is an essential aspect of their performance review. The same review and assessment occurs at similar levels in any other sport. I mentioned in an earlier post that same applies to technique. Identifying and performance testing the equipment used by the winner is an essential to performance improvement and is very different from blindly following the leader/winner. I advocated the former, not the latter. After each caster's performance assessment at an event, he/she may then decide to use the same rod as the winner for their next event, but that is after an objective assessment, not a subjective one.

There are many inputs to performance, what would be interesting in respect of rod bend, is to quantify the extent to which it matters and that would need to be applicable across a number of casters. Again I agree with Lasse - the rod you are most familiar with usually provides your best performance so that would need to be accounted for in the investigation of either hypothesis.

John

[Merlin]

Hi Ron

Strings matter for a tennis racquet. They are able to release the ball at the time the frame reaches its maximum bend. In that case you get nothing back from the elastic energy stored in the frame itself. That raised the interest for very stiff frames to be able to catch some feedback coming from the elastic energy stored in the frame.

Question: should the stiffness of strings be tuned with the stiffness of the frame and how? How comfortable are the various options?

Merlin

[RSalar]

It’s 3:00am and I need to get a couple more hours of sleep but I find it interesting that Daniel (who has published many scientific articles on rod flex, spring effect, stiffness, etc) is, or appears to be, resisting the idea that bend matters! This has me befuddled and I need to figure out why. And yes string stretch and bend along with the bend of the racket obvious help propel the tennis ball! Bend matters! If it didn’t matter they would be using flat stiff round paddles instead of stringed rackets. And the paddles would work and the good players would still win but that doesn’t prove that bend doesn’t matter. Ok I’m going to find the scientific evidence needed to prove that bend matters. And it would be great if someone from team Bend Doesn’t Matter provide some scientific evidence that it doesn’t matter. Thank you all, and good night, Ron

PS: how something feels — good or bad— is I agree a subjective thing. And how the fly rod bend feels to you during the cast surely matters. Can tactile feel be measured and quantified? That’s just one way it matters, I intend to show that it matters in terms of actual measurable performance.

[RSalar]

Hi chaps,
Let’s see if I can find some agreement here. Of course bend matters
Cheers, Paul

I hereby nominate Paul to be the Captain of team Bend Matters. I think tee-shirts would be very appropriate!

Good night,

Ron

[VGB]

Ron, there is no such thing as Team "Bend doesn't matter", only Team "bend isn't very high on my list of priorities".

[RSalar]

This picture shows the captain of Team Bend Doesn’t Matter demonstrating his pole vaulting technique.

2F89CE71-CA45-4330-BE84-FF4BF3EAFC5D.jpeg (51.35 KiB) Viewed 569 times

By 1942, the world record, set on a bamboo pole, was recorded at 4.77 meters [2]. However, the bamboo pole still presented limitations to achieving higher heights. The pole still did not bend enough to increase the efficiency of the vault significantly.

More science to follow!