Lust for Technology

[George C]

A question for you guys up there in the fourth sphere of heaven.

Down here in the second circle of hell, where "the violent winds drag and beat the tormenting souls", are a lot of us crappy casters lusting for a way to at least move up to Limbo where the winds are reportedly less. Those greedy rod marketers down in the fourth circle know this and keep telling us the easy way up is through technology. Should we believe them?

Over the last 20 years we're told the resins are better, the fibers are stiffer, the designers are smarter, the prices higher, so the rods must be better.
Rods do seem lighter, and thinner (or stronger, pick any two?). Maybe they are more fun to cast (or maybe its just that the 7 year itch thing again).

So I ask,....do any of these technological advances translate into rods that, for a given skill level, can actually be cast farther than the graphite/resin systems that proceeded them.....and if so by about what percentage and why?

Thanks for any input or experience you can offer.
George

[Graeme H]

Hi George,

Most of that is marketing designed to sell rods. There are some improvements, but by and large, it’s difficult to buy a truly bad rod these days.

You’ll see the truth of this when you ask a good caster to cast your rod. Within two or three strokes, their loops will be tight and the line will sail with ease into the fourth level of heaven.

There’s no getting around the axiom that you can’t buy a great cast. Take a lesson or two and practice. That’s really the only way.

(That’s not to say you should not get that rod you lust for. It’s lovely to use good equipment, but do it for the right reasons. That might be as simple as just wanting it. )

Cheers,
Graeme

[Merlin]

George

Carbon fibers have been the same since about 30 years, there has been improvements in processing but nothing spectacular, and nobody should be impressed by IM12 or something. Resins have improved too with or without the introduction of nanoparticles but those are not panacea giving extraordinary performances, they also have their drawback (failures for lack of homogeneity).

It's all in the design, and sometimes there are very nice rods in the middle range of prices.

Merlin

[George C]

I'm with you, Merlin and Graeme. I understand well that I can't buy anywhere near the performance gain I can get through knowledge and work. I naively tried that route for near 30 years and got nowhere. Two years of gleaning knowledge from you guys, and lots of practice, has gotten me another 30' and real promise of more. Fishing is way more fun and successful, too. I build my own rods and that pretty much rules out chasing the newest and hottest technologies anyways as the big companies no longer sell their top end blanks.....or do so at prices designed to be sure custom builds don't undercut their finished rods.

Still, for whatever reason I wonder if I may be missing something. For example, here's Sage's latest pitch for their newest product, the slower action Core R8. Try not to gag. But is there any truth behind any of it?

.......The secret is twofold. First, a proprietary aerospace composite with a greater hoop strength enables us to dimensionally grow taper diameter more quickly from the tip—while a nano-sintered resin application increases axial resilience and allows us to pack more fiber into the blank, resulting in that true two-way connection from hand to fly and back for greater feel, flow and control.

Advanced nano-sintered resin application and a more resilient axial fiber allow us to re-profile the dimensional taper to get thicker quicker from tip to butt - resulting in better energy transfer and greater feel. Simply put - a better and more efficient "wiring" of energy.

[RSalar]

I personally love the technological advances in fly rods. Otherwise we'd still be using lancewood! I just think that the technology is pretty well spread out across all of the brands. Are Sage rods really any better than Orvis rods? I don't know where these rods are made but I have a feeling a lot of companies have their rods made in the same factory or a similar factory in the same country -- they may have different tapers and layups but the manufacturing is pretty much standardized. Just for the fun of it I bought a 9' 7wt off Ebay for $34.00 and it casts fine. The cork and reel seat are poorly made, and I'm sure the guides are the cheapest they could find, but as far as casting goes ... it's pretty damn good... a little too stiff for my preference but I can cast it. For all anyone knows the blank could be exactly the same as a Sage ... or a Loomis.

I think it comes down to the design and I think it's not only about stress curves and mathematics -- it's about feel. And that's a personal thing. The rod designer should be a good caster and he/she should know what feel he's after. Then you, as the consumer, need to find the rod that suits your preferences. Whenever I'm fishing with other people, I always ask if I can try their rod. Even the shape of the grip makes a difference. And life is too short not to fish with nice gear. I say if you lust after the latest and greatest -- go buy it!

[Paul Arden]

Even if it’s true George, it certainly sounds like bollocks

[Merlin]

Hi George

Bloody marketers! Hoop fibers are in use since 20 years or more, nanoparticles in resins since 10 years maybe. It is not the first time that Sage explains they use a greater share of fibers ("konnectic"). The basic technology is 64% fibers / 36% resin. I do not know where there are in terms of resin content (30% ?) but there is a minimum otherwise there is not resin enough to hold fibers. In terms of feel from rods, they lag behind others.

I interpret the "aerospace technology" as the use of a carbon fibers fabric used in aerospace to make a specific carbon scrim. That is also pretty old technology.

Merlin

[George C]

Hi all

The success of a cast is obviously primarily limited by human factors, determined by physiology and skill.
If we consider a rod of fixed length (9'), action, and power, then what additional limitations does the construction of the rod impose on the cast?
Phrased differently, In what ways can improved technology help a distance cast?

I can only think of three.
Blank diameter, blank weight, and (maybe?) energy absorption.
I can see how a lighter and thinner blank (for a given power and length) could be rotated faster but I wonder how much can be gained by doing so (understanding there are limits on fast the hand can move and that much of the resistance to rotation is related to other factors, other than the construction of the rod itself). Certainly the guides, line in the rod, line being pulled by the rod, weight of the hand, and reel resist rotation. And doesn't air resistance increase as a square of speed which would offset some of the gain of faster rotation as well?

As for energy 'loss' or energy retention beyond RSP1 how significant is this? How much is independent of blank weight? Do some materials actually give back more energy to the line than others .....as the rod marketers suggest? Are we talking about a significant amount of energy relative to the whole of the cast? I'd think not but really don't know.

Thanks
George

[Graeme H]

Hi George,

These things might have some impact at the very highest level of elite competition casting, but from what I've seen, great casters can pick up any rod and any line and cast way further than "normal casters" (whatever that might mean) with the very same gear. I think the rod - with all other factors being equal - might add maybe 5' to the longest cast, taking it from (say) 130' to 135' with a SA MED. That makes a difference to competition guys, but really, when you're fishing with a line that is 110' long, and a good caster can reach that with any modern rod, then the rod itself is no longer important. The limiting factor is the length of the fishing line, not the rod material or design.

The promises of longer casts made more easily and with better tracking (etc.) are simply there to tempt the guys who think better gear means better casting. Beware of advertising promises.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Lasse Karlsson]

If one takes a good hard look at the elite level of competition casters, they all use rods they have been using for years, and aome of those rods are pretty old like 3 generations down or more of most companies line up changes.

I don't believe in a 5 feet increase from a "better" rod, but we all knew I wouldnt

Cheers
Lasse