The Social Dilemma (Netflix)

[tomo]

I've struggled with the whole dam thing long before I watched the documentary. Mainly being a puppet for Google & FB (& whoever else) , the time it steels away from our lives, the addictiveness, the bollocks algerithms, and generally the crap that we subconsciously lap up. There's more, but I'll leave it there!!

I've been online since the start, whenever that was, when the internet was small and when FB came along and was about friends. To curb the use I set timers (digital wellbeing - android) to the various platforms IG, FB etc. For daily use - 5mins/day. Then I deleted the apps off my phone a few weeks later. If I want go on them now I have to log on via my laptop.

This has been working well ,and I tell you there's bugger all of it I miss. The whole killing time on your phone , doing the rounds on the apps was getting too much. However. Trying to run a business is almost impossible without being on them in one form or another. So I still am. And, Instagram in particular is made not to be PC/laptop friendly, it's actually difficult to easily use without a smart phone.

Interested to hear your thoughts on the subject. Ironically, posting this in the manshit section, is about as far from proper manshit as you can get, in my opinion!! . Probably more relevant under the daily planet.

Cheers, Tom.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Tom,

Sexyloops pre-dates both. We were September ‘98. Actually Google was the same month I’ve just read! But they were just another search engine back then whereas we were one of very few flyfishing publications and only one of two flycasting sites! I assume they had an algorithm that checked how relevant their results were by following the searcher, what they clicked and for how long they stayed. Maybe even analysed how they refined their searches to find what they wanted.

Facebook I dislike entirely. They analyse your “private” messages FFS. And then sell that data for advertising revenue. That to me is simply wrong. And that tells me everything I need to know about them.

What I also dislike is that they have in a very large way killed forums. If I search for how to fix my car, or boat, or how to fly my drone, I always end up in forums and not FB. I’m sure that’s why our Board readership is still high while the actual posting activity is considerably lower. I do not get involved in posting much on FB. I post up the daily FPs and new content and the occasional photo (because that appears highly in feeds) change my profile pic every once in a while (for the same reason). I rarely read the feed.

I’m trying to do the same thing with the news app, Reuters, and just read what’s important instead of spending hours reading about bollocks that doesn’t affect me. I don’t even like tennis FFS!

What I have been doing this year is going offline for 3-4 days. When I have guests I can be offline for a week. I have noticed that I absolutely must get offline for some days every week otherwise my head turns into cotton wool! This was never a problem before but lockdowns changed all that. It’s easy for me; I just head far enough down the lake where the fishing is better and the internet is nil. I haven’t been able to do this these two weeks because we’re in fkin lockdown again. But like you I am very actively cutting out time wasted on social media.

My biggest problem with FB is that it has resulted in very polarised thinking. Instead of bringing people together it has clearly been used to divide us. Brexit was in part a FB phenomenon. That makes it very dangerous IMO. It’s also largely unmoderated. Some of the more extreme stuff is eventually removed. That Tarrant guy posting himself live in Christchurch still managed to appear in my feed the next day. WTF??

If it wasn’t for business I would delete it. In fact I would never have got involved in the first place apart from the fact that we have a registered trademark and they were changing from profile numbers to names, and companies with registered trademarks had first bite of the cherry.

Something I’ve never really understood, is if you have built a business and have reached the point where you have enough money to live out the rest of your life in comfort, then why not turn it into a not-for-profit organisation and bugger off and live the good life?

Cheers, Paul

[Bendix]

Hi

I don’t know much about this subject to be honest... I think it is because I have never signed up for Facebook, Instagram and the others, so I really don’t know what all the fuss is about. Instead I still have an old Nokia phone with no internet access, and my only “computer” is a 10 year old iPad (actually I am to pick up a brand new iPad today, as my old one is getting too old...).

So in my case, I guess you can say that ignorance is bliss...

But I see your point! I can see how others are seemingly addicted to their phones, and how it affects their lives. How they stare at it all the time, and how their mood is affected during fishing trips, because of emails and messages that keep popping up all the time... And how people at restaurants and other public places are not talking to each other, because they stare at their phones... And how often I find, that my conversations with people and friends are constantly interrupted, because something happens on their phone...
So to me, all this modern technology and constantly being online, is actually a bad thing... And that’s why I keep using my old Nokia for as long as I possibly can!

Like I said, ignorance is bliss!

/Bendix

[Paul Arden]

Basically what happens is advertisers go to marginal constituencies, find borderline/undecided voters and bombard them with adverts on FB. Eg nonsense about Turkey joining the EU and millions of Turks travelling to England or Wales and setting up kebab shops and mosques. Basically stirring up people’s prejudices through lies. Or another example would be Trump winning the US election with Russian help. It’s not really very much different from what the newspapers do.

It concerns me on many levels.

Cheers, Paul

[Carol]

FB helped me get through the pandemic. Being isolated physically is bad enough. Now mind you, we are not super social people to begin with. Living in resort communities, we've seen too many people ruin their lives with alcohol and drugs, so we don't do either one and are thus social outliers.

With FB, I just am careful who I add as "friends" by looking at their home page and postings when I get a "friend request." I am looking for people who are about fly fishing and casting. If they are "out there," or only post pictures of their grandkids, DELETE. As a businessman who relies upon the internet, you cannot do that. As for Instagram and other platforms, they are just time sucks. IMHO.

[tomo]

Hi Tom,

Sexyloops pre-dates both. We were September ‘98. Actually Google was the same month I’ve just read! But they were just another search engine back then whereas we were one of very few flyfishing publications and only one of two flycasting sites! I assume they had an algorithm that checked how relevant their results were by following the searcher, what they clicked and for how long they stayed. Maybe even analysed how they refined their searches to find what they wanted.

Facebook I dislike entirely. They analyse your “private” messages FFS. And then sell that data for advertising revenue. That to me is simply wrong. And that tells me everything I need to know about them.

What I also dislike is that they have in a very large way killed forums. If I search for how to fix my car, or boat, or how to fly my drone, I always end up in forums and not FB. I’m sure that’s why our Board readership is still high while the actual posting activity is considerably lower. I do not get involved in posting much on FB. I post up the daily FPs and new content and the occasional photo (because that appears highly in feeds) change my profile pic every once in a while (for the same reason). I rarely read the feed.

I’m trying to do the same thing with the news app, Reuters, and just read what’s important instead of spending hours reading about bollocks that doesn’t affect me. I don’t even like tennis FFS!

What I have been doing this year is going offline for 3-4 days. When I have guests I can be offline for a week. I have noticed that I absolutely must get offline for some days every week otherwise my head turns into cotton wool! This was never a problem before but lockdowns changed all that. It’s easy for me; I just head far enough down the lake where the fishing is better and the internet is nil. I haven’t been able to do this these two weeks because we’re in fkin lockdown again. But like you I am very actively cutting out time wasted on social media.

My biggest problem with FB is that it has resulted in very polarised thinking. Instead of bringing people together it has clearly been used to divide us. Brexit was in part a FB phenomenon. That makes it very dangerous IMO. It’s also largely unmoderated. Some of the more extreme stuff is eventually removed. That Tarrant guy posting himself live in Christchurch still managed to appear in my feed the next day. WTF??

If it wasn’t for business I would delete it. In fact I would never have got involved in the first place apart from the fact that we have a registered trademark and they were changing from profile numbers to names, and companies with registered trademarks had first bite of the cherry.

Something I’ve never really understood, is if you have built a business and have reached the point where you have enough money to live out the rest of your life in comfort, then why not turn it into a not-for-profit organisation and bugger off and live the good life?

Cheers, Paul

It sure does! I started reading early 2000's after Badger (Mike Lane) put me on to the site! Anyway I digress..
Forums for me are exactly the same - and when you find the info you are after, sometimes its 10+ years old. That's bloody brilliant. Try finding something on FB that happened yesterday, or even a few hours ago. Stuff is almost un-searchable, and the threads are incredible hard to follow that I don't see the point in engaging in detailed discussion on a topic. It is however, a medium that some people only use. Other message boards I use to read/ write on are virtually dead now (and have been for some time) as far as current content goes.

If anyone hasn't watched the docco by the way, I would definitely recommend it. I can only describe the whole phenomenon as incredible worrying, and downright dangerous. If you think you are logging on to check what your 'friends' holiday snaps are, then this will open your eyes.

Hi

I don’t know much about this subject to be honest... I think it is because I have never signed up for Facebook, Instagram and the others, so I really don’t know what all the fuss is about. Instead I still have an old Nokia phone with no internet access, and my only “computer” is a 10 year old iPad (actually I am to pick up a brand new iPad today, as my old one is getting too old...).

So in my case, I guess you can say that ignorance is bliss...

But I see your point! I can see how others are seemingly addicted to their phones, and how it affects their lives. How they stare at it all the time, and how their mood is affected during fishing trips, because of emails and messages that keep popping up all the time... And how people at restaurants and other public places are not talking to each other, because they stare at their phones... And how often I find, that my conversations with people and friends are constantly interrupted, because something happens on their phone...
So to me, all this modern technology and constantly being online, is actually a bad thing... And that’s why I keep using my old Nokia for as long as I possibly can!

Like I said, ignorance is bliss!

/Bendix

Bendix, I'm actually glad to hear that. Stay that way! I was out for dinner the other month. A young couple (20s) sat next to us. She was pregnant. They both remained on their phones and did not speak a word to each other for the entire meal. Actually, they barely looked up at each other. She took a pic of her food, presumably to upload to her online 'story' (FB/IG speek). You get the picture. Is this normal now? What are the social skills of the next generation going to be like (Ive got a 4 year old boy FFS). Notifications just rule peoples lives. At work, fishing trips, around the dinner table.

FB helped me get through the pandemic. Being isolated physically is bad enough. Now mind you, we are not super social people to begin with. Living in resort communities, we've seen too many people ruin their lives with alcohol and drugs, so we don't do either one and are thus social outliers.

I definitely get where you are coming from. Lock down in my country was a breeze compared to pretty much the rest of the world, so I totally understand it being a great tool to keep in touch with friends and family for extended periods of isolation.

Before I got the crap off my phone, I went into the apps and deselected every notification known to man. I was sick of the wee red bell telling me I was missing out on such important things. Well, bugger me. A couple of weeks later notifications started coming through again, Facebook took it upon themselves to activate the damn notifications again. That was pretty much the last straw.

Don't get me wrong. Being online (overall) for me is still important (essential for my business), but Ive just had to look long and hard at what I do and don't want to do with my time, and on what sites. Life is just too damn short.

Cheers!!

[Paul Arden]

Wow Tom. I hadn’t seen that. I saw “The Great Hack”last year.

I can see why I have to go offline down the lake for 4 days/week to escape when even the software writers themselves can’t avoid being manipulated by their own products.

I have a much better understanding of the issue now and is that actually very much more troubling.

Thanks, Paul

[Chess]

Interesting discussion, but quite a 'head-trip' of a subject to tackle. It gives me a headache trying to fathom what the introduction of the internet has done to human interaction & what it has evolved into. It is indeed altering & accelerating by itself (just like a virus), to where... I do not know. Does it scare me, yes it does. The safety valve of apathy and the once many varying opportunities of separating from it I now perceive can lead one to some sort of a self induced loneliness, electronics is simply here to stay. I dubbed a name for it, "FSD" - Flat Screen Disorder. I actually started jotting down definitions some time back trying to describe to myself the observations of people I know & family members who have altered, a few somewhat dramatically in their thinking & behavior from what I once knew of them. What really stopped me in my tracks was children and young adults. Having something in common with them seemed really difficult, a lot more than the previous years of pre-internet life. It more & compelled me to believe I was the one who had something to change - I threw my notes away! I prefer remaining as comfortable as I can in my own estimation of me rather than get involved anymore into some sort of an electronic competition involving literally hundreds of millions of people, all with varying degrees of FSD.
I'm an old school type of personality and operated in my prime in a pre-internet world. Sadly, I don't see many of the activities I once took for granted are available anymore. I traveled extensively, starting, altering and stopping ventures with all sorts of people, businesses etc. It was more of a game & lots of fun back then, albeit all money or life risks involves adrenaline (the best of all 'rushes'). Now it seems having a legal or financial degree and a thorough software education is more or less mandatory to hang onto any sort of wealth generating idea. With the banking industry gaining more & more power and influence, along with that comes seriousness. Now I'm retired and have time to reflect, I am quite horrified at the lies flowing through social media and the way people are immune to, or worse, disregard their own thinking processes and accept online information as more important or accept it without any sort of inspection as the 'truth of the moment'. I use to think the newspapers were bad, you know, the old 'don't believe everything you read era', but now it takes less than a minute and whatever piece of news you find there's a dozen varying or opposing opinions at a finger tap. The first casualty of war is the truth, so it has been said. There is definitely a war going on to control the minds of man.
Yep, fly fishing, my kind of life needs it, at least fish don't have smartphones.

[Paul Arden]

I’ve been very lucky really. I started Sexyloops in ‘98. Prior to this I was teaching on a local reservoir and writing for one of the UK fishing mags - Fly Fishing and Fly Tying. I had a few jobs. My first one was working in a fishing lodge on a reservoir at the age of 15 and my second was sales manager for a fly tackle distributor in the UK. I was travelling, spending 6 months/year in NZ from the age of 22 I think. I had about a million part time jobs working for cash; labouring, picking fruit, working in pubs and backpackers. That’s great when you are young, in your 20s and carefree. Work for a month and move on.

I never really made any money but I’ve been sleeping outdoors for most of my life so haven’t needed it No children - I think that’s when you have to change. All of a sudden someone else depends on you. I’ve never really wanted that sort of dependency. I had a stray cat for a while, but it came and went as it pleased!

I probably would have found it very hard to build a business later on in life if it wasn’t for all the time I put into Sexyloops. Without the Internet I would have written books. That’s how it was done before the Internet came into existence.

Often when we look at these things we see all the problems - and there are huge problems. What does it say about democracy when people’s opinions are being manipulated by feeding them lies designed to prod their fears? That’s an unstable future world for sure.

There is also a good side too. It’s brought people together. I’ve made friends all over the world. And I know friends who have made friends through Sexyloops and obviously other internet sites. It’s also transformed access to knowledge and facts. If you don’t know the answer you don’t look up a book nowadays, you look up the Internet. And finally, in our case at least, it’s connected interested people together to solve and understand casting problems. So spreading information is a good thing too.

When you have ten people around a table the conversation is usually between 2 or 3 people. On an Internet forum all ten get to be involved. This is good! The problem happens when a few of the people around the table are messed up. What the Internet is starting to teach us is that it’s not just a few people who have problems.

Cheers, Paul

[Chess]

Yes indeed, the internet provides some great services and communication avenues, of that there is no doubt. Just the subject of fly fishing is well documented. In my crystal ball I see stuff that makes me cringe about it though. What will it be like in 10 years is a question that stretches the imagination beyond my comprehension. "Cosi va'l mondo!" (Italian, literally "That's the way the world goes")