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Changing task constraints

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VGB
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Re: Changing task constraints

#11

Post by VGB » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:03 am

Hi John

There’s not always another cast, the competition presentations I referenced before would send fish scurrying off into the deep dark places for the day. Are there any competition events where competitors are constrained in how they stand or restricts them to casting off the off shoulder, or puts obstacles in the way of the target? Perhaps an event where the required outcome is to deliver the casting movement as slow as possible, whilst still achieving the desired outcome?

Regards

Vince
"The deep truth of being human is that there is no objective experience. Our brains are not built to measure the absolute value of anything. All that we perceive and feel is coloured by expectation, comparison, and circumstance."

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Re: Changing task constraints

#12

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:05 am

Hi Vince,

I see the 5Es as theory (and as a matchstick man model) because SLP is not even an ideal, let alone a reality of what happens. For me it’s like those Open University lectures we used to watch in the middle of the night as children, when everyone else was sleeping. Just add a few beakers and men in white coats and it’s perfect.

I know some instructors do it differently and quite a few start off by teaching the 5Es right at the beginning of the lesson. For me however I only mention them later on. Usually around the time when tailing loops start to appear. Perhaps this perspective came from having taught for 8 years before hearing about them myself :D Certainly they were virtually unknown in the UK until I started writing about them in 2003.

Task 6, ideally I would still like to see the elbow forward aligned to shoulder. At least for the first few angle changes. It gets a bit more difficult at 90 degrees but I still wouldn’t pass the shoulder with the elbow. That’s my preference. Of course there are many times when it’s impossible or impractical to cast using such technique. But as a core technique I think it’s an excellent one for flycasters to use as a solid building block in their training. Otherwise it can all be a bit wishy-washy, both figuratively as well as literally. I like to see a solid, repeatable casting movement with good form and efficient technique. I think that’s why many people come to a lesson in the first place, ie to learn “good form”.

The more elements you add to a short distance stroke the less easily repeatable it becomes. That’s why you see competition accuracy casters casting in the way they do. It’s not because they can’t employ a wide variety of techniques, it’s because they want to dial in consistency.

Regarding the 90% of first time students being semi-open stance; these are untaught casters, which of course is the vast majority of anglers. Many have been fishing for 15-20 years and have never used closed stance. If they’ve had a lesson then that’s different. But in the world of untrained casting, closed stance is very rare.

However I’m pretty sure we have different students Vince! From what I can glean from our discussions, mostly your students are beginners and you are teaching them stream-fishing casting? I do that too but my far more typical student has 15-20yrs of fly fishing experience and, like most of us did, suddenly think to themselves “if I was a better caster I’d catch more fish and have more fun!” Usually they haven’t had a lesson before. Some go down the CCI route. But most don’t. They do take their training very seriously however and all of them want to become very good. So my objective is to help them to achieve that.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Changing task constraints

#13

Post by John Waters » Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:41 am

Hi Vince,

Not that I’m aware of, they are a sporting competition, like any other sport. As I’ve said, how you cast and where you cast depends on specific objectives. I suppose you could say that you only get one chance at a fish, but that is not the case in every fishing event, whereas you always only get one chance in a competition. The one thing they have in common is whether the technique and skill are good enough to overcome whatever the challenge is. I suspect that if there was a competition involving all the constraints you mentioned, the same people who win the current events would win the new, constraints based event because of their technique and skill.

I suspect we will never get the chance to test that hypothesis,

John

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VGB
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Re: Changing task constraints

#14

Post by VGB » Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:19 am

Hi Paul

I don’t teach the 5Es, it’s a simplified framework that is useful for 1st approximation when identifying faults. However, I think that you are underestimating the uses of 5Es, particularly the use of feedback from the movement you have been making which should lead to a correction if necessary. That said, I don’t think that I have ever seen that formally stated anywhere.

Bernstein has already demonstrated that repeatable movement is a myth, we are designed to introduce variability. The reasons why this occurs is open to speculation but injury prevention and the generation of errors are probable benefits. The last sounds odd I know but it makes sense to me as an engineer and I’ll try and find a good explanation later when I’m not shopping for fireplaces.

As for form, please could you let me know what definition you are using because we could be talking about 2 entirely different things.
From what I can glean from our discussions, mostly your students are beginners and you are teaching them stream-fishing casting?
You know nobody has asked, it’s what other instructors keep telling me I’m doing :D Most of my instruction has been mentoring with several days a year doing club stuff to get people fishing effectively. If COVID permits, I will be doing more with serving and retired military personnel, and I anticipate that the latter will be particularly challenging. As I mentioned before, I can select what I do and the one off lesson don’t particularly interest me, it’s like being a hooker.

Regards

Vince
"The deep truth of being human is that there is no objective experience. Our brains are not built to measure the absolute value of anything. All that we perceive and feel is coloured by expectation, comparison, and circumstance."

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Re: Changing task constraints

#15

Post by VGB » Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:26 am

Hi John

I have no doubt competition casters can make excellent controlled movements but changing the constraints will change the technique employed. I don’t teach to fixed constraints because that’s not the environment we are operating in. What did occur to me yesterday when I was teaching was that when I took the speed of my motion down very slow, my movement sequence changed to predominantly body, as I added speed it became more arm/shoulder centric. More threading a needle than throwing a dart. I’m still mulling over the consequences of that thought for teaching and fishing.

Regards

Vince
"The deep truth of being human is that there is no objective experience. Our brains are not built to measure the absolute value of anything. All that we perceive and feel is coloured by expectation, comparison, and circumstance."

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Re: Changing task constraints

#16

Post by John Waters » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:47 pm

An interesting, but important observation Vince and one that I suggest is an expected outcome of the use of a chain of movement that generates cumulative speed and power. It illustrates the potential of how correct technique can deliver multiple outcomes by turning on or off segments in that chain. That is why optimising technique, not style, optimises outcomes. I think your post illustrates that technique variations are just variations in that chain and those variations occur to meet the different objectives or outcomes desired from the equipment we use. As we exclude segments of the chain, we must generate power and speed through the segments we have chosen to retain, else the equipment performs poorly e.g. the loop collapses etc. etc. We can choose to not use a segment or use it sub-optimally, both cases impact those segments we do utilise for the particular cast.

Now that may be a load of bollocks and at 11:43 pm, I'm too tired to think about whether it is or not.

Have a good weekend everyone,

John

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Re: Changing task constraints

#17

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:22 pm

Ah teaching the army! Well if it’s anything like my experience the teaching should be quite rigid! I went through a barefoot tree-hugging phase in my life, with open-ended self-investigative teaching, however when teaching Sergeant Majors (or merchant bankers for the matter) a highly disciplined stroke such as Peter MacKenzie-Philps used to teach is perfect. :D

I suppose no two snowflakes are identical, but if you can’t repeat your hovered false cast angle on the delivery then you’ll miss your target!

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Changing task constraints

#18

Post by VGB » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:45 pm

Hi John

All sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I would also suggest that the rates of acceleration are different between the body segments which means that you can have a finer degree of control using the body which will help with speed/accuracy trade offs in teaching. It does mean that what I may be demonstrating in slow time may be different to what I do normally.

Regards

Vince
"The deep truth of being human is that there is no objective experience. Our brains are not built to measure the absolute value of anything. All that we perceive and feel is coloured by expectation, comparison, and circumstance."

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Re: Changing task constraints

#19

Post by VGB » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:49 pm

Hi Paul
highly disciplined stroke such as Peter MacKenzie-Philps used to teach is perfect.
He was probably infantry :D. The technical branches of the services have some people that you would want on your side in a quiz night.
I suppose no two snowflakes are identical, but if you can’t repeat your hovered false cast angle on the delivery then you’ll miss your target!
I think that you are confusing outcome with process ;)

Regards

Vince
"The deep truth of being human is that there is no objective experience. Our brains are not built to measure the absolute value of anything. All that we perceive and feel is coloured by expectation, comparison, and circumstance."

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Re: Changing task constraints

#20

Post by VGB » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:56 pm

A quote from Rafa Nadals biography by John Carlin:
You might think that after millions and millions of balls I’ve hit, I’d have the basic shots of tennis show up, that reliably hitting a true, smooth clean shot every time would be a piece of cake. But it isn’t. Not just because every day you wake up feeling differently, but because every shot is different; every single one. From the moment the ball is in motion, it comes at you at an infinitesimal number of angles and speeds, with more topspin, or backspin, or flatter or higher. The differences might be minute, microscopic, but so are the variations your body makes—shoulders, elbows, wrists, hips, ankles, knees—in every shot. And there are so many other factors—the weather, the surface, the rival. No ball arrives the same as another; no shot is identical.
"The deep truth of being human is that there is no objective experience. Our brains are not built to measure the absolute value of anything. All that we perceive and feel is coloured by expectation, comparison, and circumstance."

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