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Curve casts in the MCI exam

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Carol
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Re: Curve casts in the MCI exam

#11

Post by Carol » Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:08 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:50 pm
Maybe. I was asking because it doesn't make sense that the loop orientation should have such a impact, so you have to be doing something else, which is the usual culprit.
180 rule of thump is tracking and trajectory, "continues tension" cast doesn't break that.
Yes, throwing tracking of does help in curving the other way, unless its a overpowered curve you are looking for.

Try laying the line straight on the ground behind you, and see if it does a difference in getting the line to curve.

Cheers
Lasse
I was thinking 180 degrees insofar as tracking is concerned, but I didn't specify that. My apologies. (My poor hubby suffers from me expecting him to read my mind to understand my train of thought. I need to work on 'clear, concise, precise' and starting the train from the embarking station. LOL)

I like your idea of laying out the line behind in a curve and seeing what it does on the forward cast. That's a great thing I can use for students too. Thank you for that.

As mentioned, Jonathan Walter got me straightened out (or should I say curved?), and in 15 mins I was throwing a nice underpowered curve. As Graeme suspected, I was using too much force and speed, even though I thought I'd already backed off on both, :whistle:
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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Re: Curve casts in the MCI exam

#12

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:57 pm

Hi Carol,

Overpowered curves off-shoulder are I think the most difficult casts to execute. And the closer to the vertical the rod the harder it is.

You are correct that the loop has to be horizontal. This is because a) the fly kicks around and b) a wave travels back along the flyline from loop straight. So a horizontal loop is key.

Also trajectory is important. An inclining trajectory will allow the line to curve around far easier than a downward trajectory which can kick the fly into the water.

The third important detail is when you apply force. Apply early and the result is a wide loop that doesn’t have excess energy at loop straight. So the force most be applied “late”. A perfect application for “pull-back”.

When teaching/learning these casts it’s very helpful to start with a short line. Say 10’ of flyline and build from there. Play with that length.

I don’t have a hell of a lot of use for the cast you mention. Overpowered curves yes. But close to vertical rod plane is pretty mute as far as I’m concerned for many reasons.

Very few people can overpower curve casts accurately, consistently and first time off-shoulder. Adding complexity of rod plane is nonsense. We are generally not that good. In fact I don’t know anyone who is. If you really want to use this cast for fishing I would recommend using the left hand with a closer to horizontal rod plane. That is a useful cast! However I’ve never met anyone who has done this. I haven’t mastered it either. Not if we are talking throwing a fly around a bush to a target at different distances first time. I have learned this off the right shoulder. If someone fancies a comp off the left then I’m game to learn it. It would be a useful addition for me and I’ve been seriously considering the hundred hours of practise involved. :pirate:

Cheers, Paul
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Carol
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Re: Curve casts in the MCI exam

#13

Post by Carol » Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:10 pm

Competitive off-shoulder or non-dominant hand curve casts?? Dry or weighted flies? :laugh: The improvement from practice could be extremely beneficial. As you know that skill is super useful when fishing a nymph rig and trying to get around a tree sticking out in the river. Of course, size/weight of the flies matters, as does split shot. Whether or not I, personally, am good enough to avoid tangling in the tree is another question. Guess that's where the practice comes in! :D
Carol
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Re: Curve casts in the MCI exam

#14

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:01 pm

Paul,

Damn dude!

You know, it is not really uncommon for me to slightly disagree with some thing you occasionally spew, but that last post!!!

It would be easier for me to single out the few statements that I agree with.

It actually makes me suspicious. :???:

So, I will just pick out one disagreement: my favorite, most reproducible, "curve to the right" cast is off shoulder with an almost vertical rod plane.

Unfortunately, at least when sight fishing, it is almost useless around here as the fish will see the high rod. But when casting to shores in deeper water it is money.

So, when sight fishing I do switch hands to the left and drop the rod to horizontal. The big problem there is where the curve lies. Over-power curves, at least for me, usually place the curve quite close to the leader. I usually like the curve much further back... and that is another plus for the vertical rod cast.

Carol,

Be sure to practice with dummy flies that approximate the weight of the flies you expect to fish with! Curve casts with a fluff and a fly (especially weighted ones) are very different.

Wallace :D
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

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Carol
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Re: Curve casts in the MCI exam

#15

Post by Carol » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:03 am

Mangrove Cuckoo wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:01 pm

Carol,

Be sure to practice with dummy flies that approximate the weight of the flies you expect to fish with! Curve casts with a fluff and a fly (especially weighted ones) are very different.

Wallace :D

Of course. The forces are different for the different masses and the distribution of the mass along the leader.
Carol
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Walter
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Re: Curve casts in the MCI exam

#16

Post by Walter » Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:01 am

Carol wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:08 pm
Thanks for bringing this up, Graeme. I'm struggling with the underpowered (near vertical) curve cast to the right. The instruction was to use a "J" movement at the stop for the left-hand side, and a backward "J" movement at the stop to the right. I can do the left-side pretty well, but the right?? Hah! I've even tried turning the rod sideways (upward palm) on the delivery cast and then executing the backward "J" to get more of a "U" rather than a "J" at the stop. With either a "J" or a "U", the fly leg tends to crash into the rod. This morning I tried something different. Instead of a straight backcast, I took it off plane, like bad tracking, and coupled that with the backward "J" at the stop. That finally got the results I wanted but I don't know if it's an acceptable technique. Any L-2 examiners have an opinion?
Going to add 2 cents here. Sounds like you already have it worked out but for the benefit of others.

The task specifically says “near vertical”, not perfectly vertical. If you make a perfectly vertical cast with an underslung loop then the line is going to hit the rod. In the underpowered curve the rod needs to be tilted slightly to the side you intend to curve to. When you execute the “J” just before the stop I think of twisting the reel away from the direction of the curve. This opens up the loop to give you a pronounced curve layout.

As a right handed caster my steps to make an underpowered curve to my left are:
1. Cast with my rod slightly leaning left, not vertical.
2. Use less power than for normal casting. The loop should be slightly underslung, horizontal if possible, but definitely not passing above the rod tip.
3. At the stop I twist my wrist clockwise, so that your palm ends up facing to the right (away from me), to force the loop to open up.
4. As mentioned earlier, you can release the line as the rod is unloading to completely kill the cast and make a very large underpowered curve but that would be counted as shooting line so not allowed for the test afaik.
5. Use trajectory to prevent wind from pulling the curve out of your line. Your presentation should be downwards.
6. The fly leg should be horizontal as it lands. Ideally the entire fly leg hits the ground at the same time. If the loop hits first the fly leg can crash or not land straight. If the fly hits first and you have used a tiny bit too much power then the fly leg can still kick over resulting in an overpowered curve rather than underpowered. If I’m fishing I would shoot a bit of line just at the stop to prevent that but that isn’t allowed for the test.
"There can be only one." - The Highlander. :pirate:

PS. I have a flying tank. Your argument is irrelevant.

PSS. How to generate a climbing loop through control of the casting stroke is left as a (considerable) exercise to the reader.

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Re: Curve casts in the MCI exam

#17

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:11 pm

My apologies... I forgot the original question pertained specifically to the exam.

For an under-powered curve to the right by a right handed caster I think Walter has it well explained for a (near) vertical rod.

But now I have a question!

If a curve to the right is required from a horizontal rod, and you cannot change hands, nor can you use a backhand delivery... ???

The only way I can think of would be that Svirgolato (sp?) Italian cast. And I am positive I did not know that when I got my MCI.

My default curve to the right is neither under nor over-powered, (correct powered?) but it is also from a near vertical rod.

So how do you meet the second criteria?
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

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Walter
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Re: Curve casts in the MCI exam

#18

Post by Walter » Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:49 pm

Curves using a horizontal casting plane can be either underpowered where the line doesn’t fully unroll or overpowered where the line fully unrolls and kicks over. With a horizontal casting plane you have 4 possible choices depending on whether you are left or right handed. For a right handed caster with the rod on your dominant side an underpowered cast will curve to the right and an overpowered one will curve to your left. Keeping the rod in your right hand but casting on your non dominant side in a horizontal plane an overpowered cast will curve to your right and an underpowered one will curve to the left. There is no need to cast backhanded.

For both types of curves you want a large loop in order to get a large curve. Keeping the loop tight will only give a small amount of curve.
"There can be only one." - The Highlander. :pirate:

PS. I have a flying tank. Your argument is irrelevant.

PSS. How to generate a climbing loop through control of the casting stroke is left as a (considerable) exercise to the reader.

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Re: Curve casts in the MCI exam

#19

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:12 am

Walter wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:49 pm
Keeping the rod in your right hand but casting on your non dominant side in a horizontal plane an overpowered cast will curve to your right and an underpowered one will curve to the left. There is no need to cast backhanded.
Walter,

Thanks. I had not considered how to get the rod horizontal on the off side by holding your hand above your head or leaning way over. So, technically I have to agree you are correct. However, practically, I think both presenting on the back cast, or by simply changing hands is much easier. Around here we often have to present with a very low rod tip to keep things below the fish's cone of visibility, so that was fogging my imagination.

Gary
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

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Re: Curve casts in the MCI exam

#20

Post by James9118 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:05 pm

Being as it's been mentioned above, the svirgolato cast can be used for both right and left curves from a low (horizontal) rod plane - would these casts be suitable to pass the task in question?

Thanks, James

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