instructors, need input PLEASE READ

[windknotz88]

Hello sexy loops community, and Paul especially.

I need your help. The editorial board at the Loop is working on an article and I'd love to have any CI or MCI input concerning this series of questions.
Do you accept payment for instruction?
Do you not? Sometimes?
Under what circumstances do you accept payment or refuse it?
What is your view on instructors who accept payment or refuse it?
What do you think should be the circumstance to accept or refuse payment for instruction?

This controversy has recently been at the center of spirited debates among the circle of certified instructors in the FFI, discussed and argued over as much as teaching methods and rod mechanics. Rather than offer our take on this issue—we will only admit that it is diverse among our board, and the FFI has no official position on this matter—we decided to reach out to our instructors worldwide to understand the thinking behind instructors who accept payment, instructors who refuse, and those who do both according to different circumstances.

So what is your response to these questions? If you respond, would you be willing to have your response appear in the Loop?

Paul, would love to know what you think here. If any of you would like to respond privately, email me at brian@tncastingmaster.com and I can promise confidentiality.

Thanks, Brian DeLoach, MCI
Associate Editor at The Loop

[Paul Arden]

Hi Brian,

Not sure why it’s a controversy? Yes I charge for my time - both casting and fly fishing instruction - and have done so for 25 years.

Sometimes I barter and very very occasionally I work for free. I may be the least professional instructor but I am most definitely professional.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Edit maybe it’s controversial because anglers are using the exam to test themselves and not to teach others? That would tend to put a fire in the kitchen.

[Graeme H]

Do you accept payment for instruction?
Yes.

Do you not? Sometimes?
Sometimes I don't.

Under what circumstances do you accept payment?
If a potential student approaches me to give them lessons, I'll charge for my time with them.
Sometimes I run casting clinics. I charge for my time.
Sometimes I will barter my lessons for an equivalent service or object.

... or refuse it?
If I offer to teach someone a few pointers while we're fishing, I don't charge.
If I'm learning to teach something, I don't charge my time for those lessons.
If I organise a clinic with special guest instructor (e.g. Paul visiting Perth), I don't charge my time for that clinic, since I'm learning from them about how to teach.
If I am attending our club casting days, I don't charge for my time.
If I otherwise donate my time for lessons on behalf of a charity or not-for-profit, I don't charge for my time.

What is your view on instructors who accept payment or refuse it?
I don't worry about what other people do with their time.

What do you think should be the circumstance to accept or refuse payment for instruction?
I don't think an instructor should accept full payment if he/she is not certified to teach that skill set (e.g. TH casting with only a CCI) and they themselves are learning that skill.

I think any certified instructor has the right to charge for their time. They spent money and time obtaining their certification and their teaching skills have value to clients.

I think it's up to an MCI to choose whether they charge to teach CCI and MCI candidates when they are attempting to obtain their certification.

Working pro bono is the choice of the instructor.

I don't really know where this is going though. The FFi can't tell anybody they must not charge for their time and they can't tell anybody they must always charge.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Brian

Do you expect to get paid when you work?

If not, why? And do you sometimes work for free?

Under what circumstances would you expect to get paid for your work?

And choose not to get paid?

What is your oppinion on other people in your line of work asking to get paid to work or refuse to get paid to work?

What do you think should be the circumstances to get paid or refuse to get paid for doing work?

Just trying to see where this is going, because those questions sounds really weird.


Cheers
Lasse

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

WTF?

(Hmm… WTF + FFI = WTFFI)

Every May when FFI reminds me they want my money to remain a member (and more to say I passed my MCI exam) I have a debate with myself. It is getting harder to re-up every year. If this is truly a big controversy it will probably be the deal breaker.

To be honest I cannot see any advantage anymore. In fact, the only reason I continue to be associated is out of loyalty.

Although not exactly kicking and screaming, I did not seek my CI with much enthusiasm at first. I was asked to get certified by a club who offered to sponsor me. Then I met the most amazing people: Tom White, John Gayewski, Gordy Hill, Dusty Spraig… right off the bat and in that order. After that, I had to learn more about the FFF as it appeared to be an organization that I would be proud to say I was a member.

Since then I did meet a few more members who were/are of the same caliber, which includes some other editors of the Loop. But things are obviously changing.

To answer your definitely suspicious questions I would have to admit that I do not charge 95% of the students I see. But it is more grey than black & white. I teach a weekly class, for beginners, through Bass Pro Shops. To use their shop equipment I must wear their shirt, and to do that I must be an employee. So, you could say that my couple hours of weekly employment at near minimum wage is payment for teaching, I guess?

BTW… I just realized I get enough compensation from BPS to almost cover my annual dues at FFI!

To be honest, if someone asks for private lessons I will usually find some time to meet them, and I will charge for that. Although Boyscout troops, fishing clubs, and attractive single mothers usually get significant discounts. The economics are simply not favorable though: even at the full going price for an hour or two of lessons, it simply does not make up for the day off from my full-time job that I have to sacrifice. That usually means forfeiting a day of fishing.

When I retire in a few years this all may change. I believe everyone has the right to charge for lessons if they so desire, whether they are FFI certified or not. It is up to the student to choose wisely.

Recently, something possibly parallel has happened to “certified” fishing guides at Everglades National Park. Guides have to register and pay an annual fee to be allowed to work within the park boundaries. Not only has the annual fee increased, but now the park wants a percentage.

Is this where FFI is heading?

[Paul Arden]

Ok so what’s it about?

[Lasse Karlsson]

Ok so what’s it about?

Damn good question

[RexW]

As already mentioned, this is a weird question and I am skeptical, but I'll answer the questions.

Do you accept payment for instruction?

Of course I am willing to accept payment. I have devoted a significant amount of time and money to develop the skills to offer casting instruction of value to my students. My time and ability is worth something.

Do you not? Sometimes?

Yes, I volunteer a significant amount of my instruction time, but not all of it.

Under what circumstances do you accept payment or refuse it?

The primary circumstances where I accept payment are for private lessons, full or half day casting clinics, and seminar expenses.

I volunteer in a variety of situations including FFI events, club events, other fly fishing events, and occasionally individual lessons. But my primary volunteer instruction is offered to the local FFI club members, usually with the assistance of other certified instructors. By offering free classes, I get to determine the class size, location, topic, along with the time and duration of each class. Basically, by offering a free class, I get the freedom to teach when and where I want. As a bonus, I am able to use public parks without the need to acquire government permission.

I do not accept payment whenever I am experimenting with class topics or instruction style. I do not charge for a lesson unless I am confident that I am offering my students quality instruction on that class's topic.

I will add that I do accept tips when offered.

What is your view on instructors who accept payment or refuse it?

I do not care what other instructors do for their classes.

What do you think should be the circumstance to accept or refuse payment for instruction?

I think each instructor has the right to determine their payment standards for themselves. I am concerned that if the FFI takes a position one way or the other, that the organization risks angering its certified instructors that may disagree with whichever side the FFI takes on this issue. I do not understand why the FFI is concerned about this issue?

Rex W., FFI CI

[Paul Arden]

Well what’s the answer!!!