Task 2 CCI and Definitions question

[Paul Arden]

Hi Guys,

just looking at this one:

____ 2. Casting 40 feet (12.2 meters), demonstrate very wide loops on the forward cast on command.
Expectations: On command, the forward loops should exceed the width of the back loops by 3-4 feet (0.91-1.22m) or more. Forward and back loops should be in the same plane.

So if I read this right, the caster maintains tight back loops and then repeats with multiple wide loops on the forward cast after being called to do so. Personally for this task I would (probably) reposition the rod during the backcast loop unrolling using Drift and hence widening the available casting arc, and (certainly) I would use Drift [SL defn.] to narrow the available casting arc prior to the backcast (although really it's not to narrow the available arc, and its purpose is more aligned to trajectory).

What I was wondering is whether the IFF definitions have successfully taken hold for their exams. Ie is the term "Creep" being used for this rod repositioning move?

Thanks, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

Not that I know of...

And those definitions are only for talking amongst instructors, and could/should be modified when talking to students, personally I use drift instead
And haven't met anyone who uses them....

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

If they are for talking to instructors I would imagine that the CCI test would be the perfect time!

[Lasse Karlsson]

Why? Two Instructors talking to a would be instructor about how he/she talks to students?

Seems like the most unlikely place to use language meant for secret handshakes and stuff

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

So you don’t use the terms Drift or Creep when talking to students? Never mention Casting Arc or Loop?

Why?

That’s crazy. I’m sure that you use them; they are not secret instructor code words but are in common usage by students. Students are students not because they are dumb - and instructors are not rocket scientists. The only reason not to use IFF definitions with students is because they don’t fkn work

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

The only reason not to use IFF definitions with students is because they don’t fkn work

Mate,
In my experience it's hardly ever the definition itself but the single instructor making proper use of whatever def in his lesson. Having said this I never will limit my teaching due to ONLY keeping one small set of definitions in my tool box. In regard of instructor organisations it's a huge mistake trying to limit all communication in my point of view. Learning to shine light from many different angles on all parts of fly casting always will be key to the best instructors, I think.
Cheers
Bernd

[Paul Arden]

When you and Ashly sit around a campfire, and you speak German and she talks Mandarin, I want to film it. Remember all the arguments we had here 10-20 years ago? They were all because we as instructors used different meanings for definitions that we all commonly used. Within only a short time of publishing our definitions all of those arguments and misunderstandings ceased. Communication improved and we are all living happy fishing lives.

If your definition of hammer, is someone else's screwdriver, then it's going to take a long time to fix the house. I learned that hammer in Hungarian is kalapács. If I hadn't learned that I would still be building my house.

I find it very interesting that fly casting instructors are frightened by definitions. It's not the students, it's the instructors. Students want definitions. It gives structure to lessons, they feel that they are learning something. When you learn to sail, hang glide, dive - one of the first things you are taught is definitions. This makes for clear communication. These are the terms we use and this is what they mean. So it's definitely not the students who are being dumb here!

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

So you don’t use the terms Drift or Creep when talking to students? Never mention Casting Arc or Loop?

Why?

That’s crazy. I’m sure that you use them; they are not secret instructor code words but are in common usage by students. Students are students not because they are dumb - and instructors are not rocket scientists. The only reason not to use IFF definitions with students is because they don’t fkn work

Cheers, Paul

I do use those words, just not as FFI defines them in secret handshakes fashion, luckily they come with the very important introduktion that they are only for use between Instructors and will ost likely have to be changed when talking to a student(s) and thats what I was saying in the first place.

I otherwise agree, and I think you just agree with me too

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

Yes I agree with you, I always agree with you Lasse

However I would have thought that in order to examine task 2 on the CCI, instructor-to-instructor speak, you would have to mention the word Creep [FFI defn.] for the rod repositioning move prior to commencing the backcast. Going from a wide loop forward cast (large casting arc) to a narrow loop backcast (narrow casting arc) requires a rod repositioning move between strokes in order to have the correct trajectory on the backcast.

My reason for asking was practical as well, as you know I run through theory with a few candidates. It's at this point that I have to explain definitions, particularly because I don't like the usage of the term "Creep" for this rod repositioning move. But if that's how examiners are using the term I would have them use it. Fortunately this appears not to be the case.

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Outside of the definitions, that test now seems a bit better than what I remember having to do. Didn't you have to start with wide loops, then reduce to tight loops over a series of false casts?

I think I was required to make the first pickup into the backcast with a wide loop right from the beginning, which was tough for me as I had not pictured the requirements that way.

As to the definitions... is this a demo and explain thing or just demo?

I guess I need to look over the tests. I know I have not looked at the newer revisions, maybe even a few generations of revisions.