Task 2 CCI and Definitions question

[Paul Arden]

Absolutely, Gary, I think that the tests have improved markedly. Particularly the MCI exam - depending on how it is examined. I mean there is Spey casting and there is Spey casting. I think wide to narrow loops was on the MCI test and that the narrow to wide loop was on the CCI test and only as a delivery cast.

I can't ever remember being asked to make a wide loop pickup; maybe just an examiner's quirk - or maybe I did already! Making a narrow loop pick up seems to be very difficult for many candidates.

I've never liked the performance first, teaching later, aspect to the test. I think that there should be communication right from the start. At the very least this would help the candidate relax. But I never examined it that way, and no one I ever examined with did either. Also I've never prepared candidates that way either and I want them ready to talk from the very first task and say something like, "We are going to make tight loops now, this what a loop looks like, fly casting is all about making loops; it's the unrolling loop that delivers the fly" - just as you would in a real lesson. Of course that's not to say that's how the test always goes, only that they can do that if they want.

If I was an examiner on the task, a fair question would be "how do you go from wide to narrow loops?' Of course if examiners have stopped asking questions during the performance then the question is redundant. In which case many candidates will be a bag of nerves by the end of that section!

I've always thought question 1 should be "teach me to cast".

Cheers, Paul

[jarmo]

Hi Guys,

just looking at this one:

____ 2. Casting 40 feet (12.2 meters), demonstrate very wide loops on the forward cast on command.
Expectations: On command, the forward loops should exceed the width of the back loops by 3-4 feet (0.91-1.22m) or more. Forward and back loops should be in the same plane.

So if I read this right, the caster maintains tight back loops and then repeats with multiple wide loops on the forward cast after being called to do so.

When I was training for the exam, I thought that multiple wide forward loops should be followed by a single command. I practised it that way, but to be honest, it felt like a hassle, switching back and forth all the time.

Just before my exam I was told by a friendly person in the EDP that one command was to be followed by a single wide forward loop only, and then you could switch back to narrow loops. I think this is what I did in the exam also.

Personally for this task I would (probably) reposition the rod during the backcast loop unrolling using Drift and hence widening the available casting arc, and (certainly) I would use Drift [SL defn.] to narrow the available casting arc prior to the backcast (although really it's not to narrow the available arc, and its purpose is more aligned to trajectory).

What I was wondering is whether the IFF definitions have successfully taken hold for their exams. Ie is the term "Creep" being used for this rod repositioning move?

Since - quoting MCI Eaton from Field's Fly Casting Finesse - "It is ok to be a drag, but not ok to be a creep," could this be considered to be a form of drag? Since it is intentional. Or will the gods get angry?

[Paul Arden]

Hi Jarmo,

I think there are problems with the IFF definitions. Drag sounds like a fault, they have it shortening the available Stoke Length. Sexyloops has it lengthening the Overall Stroke Length. If you teach distance casting, or even a roll cast, then teaching Drag is very useful. But if you are just teaching someone to throw 85ft then you probably don't need it (that was a joke).

With the IFF definitions Creep is neither intentional or unintentional. It is just a movement. It's not a fault. In fact every stroke begins with a small amount of Creep (when you analyse all their definitions). Even the Lift is Creep.

But hey it took us a long time to build a definitions model that actually worked. It took five attempts and about ten years. Unfortunately the IFF ran with one of the ones that didn't. I don't take responsibility for that, but it was my idea to have the Casting Stroke begin at the moment when acceleration (I chose line speed) was sufficient to create a Loop. This ultimately doesn't work and I accept that I was wrong (even if it seemed like a good idea at the time). We all make mistakes, and man, I made many along the way!!! It's unfortunate that the FFF didn't reach the top of the staircase but got stuck with that one.

It took Mark and Magnus an hour explaining the difference between quantitive and qualitative definitions to convince me. It's funny when you have a construct in your mind, it's very difficult to have another one too. But it's essential in order to fully understand how the respective definitions integrate together. It was a light bulb moment for me. My contribution was the three elements Drift (rod repositioning), Sweep (line repositioning) and Casting Stroke (when force is applied to the line with the purpose of forming a Loop). But how it really came together was Mark and Magnus' input. The physics aspects came from Grunde.

I think that it's probably our greatest contribution to fly casting instruction! It amazes me that the IFF got themselves lumbered with a set of quantitive definitions that are unmeasurable. Still it obviously isn't a problem because examiners and candidates simply aren't using them. Or maybe that is the problem.

My fear at the time was that they would use them, that they would take hold, and that we would have a lifetime of confusion on the Board, trying to hold discussions using them. I knew that they would be unworkable here. That's why we moved very fast to have a set that would function, which would potentially give us two different sets of definitions models. A unmeasurable quantitive one (IFF) based around 6 elements with 5 names in one plane, and a qualitative one (SL) based around three elements in three dimensions.

Cheers, Paul

[jarmo]

With the IFF definitions Creep is neither intentional or unintentional. It is just a movement. It's not a fault.

True. SL has the unintentional part (as have a number of other places).

Drag sounds like a fault, they have it shortening the available Stoke Length.

This too, since in the FFF definition the translation happens during the pause.

Because both definitions have drag defined as translation only, using drag to describe what you need to do in this task to narrow the arc might really make the gods angry. Using SLs definitions, the required move would just be a (rotational) drift. Right? For the exam... Maybe just avoid all of these and circumvent by using the longer "rotation in the direction of the backcast during the pause to narrow the casting arc."

But hey it took us a long time to build a definitions model that actually worked. ... I think that it's probably our greatest contribution to fly casting instruction!

Well, there are also some videos. And some discussions.

I've always thought question 1 should be "teach me to cast".

"... in 12 words." June challenge?

Smoothly. Lift, drag, rotate, crisp stop, pause & drift, drag, rotate, stop, follow.

Well, that is a bit too procedural for my taste.

[Paul Arden]

Well I don’t think 12 words is going to teach anyone to cast When I say “teach me” I really mean it. Not theory but in practice. However time constraints make this a problem. At the very least I would like to hear an introduction to what it’s all about... fishing!!! Yay!

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Smoothly. Lift, drag, rotate, crisp stop, pause & drift, drag, rotate, stop, follow.

Or... Lift, Casting Stoke, Pause, Casting Stroke, lower the rod.

Lowering the rod is a rod repositioning move and so a form of Drift. Lift is predominantly repositioning the line and so a form of Sweep.

A Roll Cast would be Lift, Sweep to form the D Loop, pause, Casting Stroke, lower the Rod. I would normally teach a Casting Stroke modified to start with Drag.

Belgian Cast PUALD: Lift, Casting Stroke (horizontal), Drift (to reposition Rod Plane to the Vertical), Casting Stroke, Lower the Rod.

Snake Roll: Lift, Sweep the rod in a circle or e-shape, Pause, Casting Stroke, Lower the Rod.

Double Spey: Lift, Sweep the line upstream, Sweep the line downstream into a D, Casting Stroke, Lower the Rod.

There are three movements. Rod repositioning, line repositioning and when force is applied to the line with the purpose of forming a Loop; Drift, Sweep and Casting Stroke. When a movement accomplishes two things - for example the Lift both repositions then line as well as the rod - then we define using the predominant one (in this example lifting the line from the water tension).

There were two major challenges with Casting Definitions. One was determining when the Casting Stroke began (this impacts Creep and Drift definitions and separates Casting Arc). That was solved by defining using qualitative definitions ie defined around the purpose of the action.

The other challenge was how to have a Distance Casting Stroke Length with delayed rotation not being shorter than a Casting Stroke with rotation throughout (IFF have excluded Drag from the Stroke Length so it’s possible that distance strokes are of a shorter stroke length than accuracy ones despite the hand translating 10 feet or more!). This was solved by having Stroke Length definitions for both Overall Stroke Length as well as Casting Stroke Length. Generally when I talk about Stroke Length I mean the Overall Stroke Length. The only time I would use Casting Stoke Length is when discussing how Drag modifies it - because in our case Drag is included in the Casting Stroke.

For me these are definitions for both practical teaching and of course Instructor conversations here on the Board. I use them when Teaching. When for example I talk about longer Roll Casts or Distance Casting, I teach “Drag” and describe what it is.

For instructors who say that they don’t use definitions in teaching I find remarkably strange. The only time I don’t use definitions when teaching is when we don’t have a common language. When I teach Drift I call it Drift. When I talk about the Casting Arc I call it the Casting Arc and explain the definition. It makes life a lot easier if you only have to do it once. I find it very hard to believe that there are casting instructors who don’t use these common terms in their lessons.

Cheers, Paul

[jarmo]

Well I don’t think 12 words is going to teach anyone to cast

That was an (overly) inside joke about what constitutes a concise answer, because I just read one 12 word rule of thumb in a preparatory material.

When I say “teach me” I really mean it. Not theory but in practice.

That’s what we do, right?

At the very least I would like to hear an introduction to what it’s all about... fishing!!! Yay!

Eventually yes, or so I have heard. But while training for these exams, often not that much. Probably preaching to the choir here.

(Been spending quite a bit of time exploring sweeps only during the past days. Feels like common sense is escaping me.)

[Paul Arden]

Hi Jarmo,

I didn’t know you were training for the exam! Yes you need to keep it simple I wouldn’t mention any of this stuff in your exam. I wouldn’t even mention the rod repositioning move between the casting strokes in task 2 unless asked.

Most examiners are happy with Wide Arc / domed tip path for open loop and narrow arc / straight(ish) tip path for narrow loop. Some examiners want to hear that you create the open loop with SLP first and then stop the rod at a lower position (it’s one of their quirks).

Cheers, Paul

[jarmo]

I didn’t know you were training for the exam!

For an exam yes, but not this one (CI). I have already passed it.

I enjoyed your cast descriptions above. Solid reuse of cast components.

[Paul Arden]

The great thing about the Drift/Sweep/Casting Stroke model is that you can apply them to all casts, even obscure ones. For example and aerielised Snap-Lift Single Spey; Lift, aerielised Snap Cast (Casting Stroke), Sweep the rod tip under and around to set up the D-Loop, Casting Stroke, Lower the rod.

Good luck with your next exam!

Cheers, Paul