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Teaching method

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Boisker
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Teaching method

#1

Post by Boisker » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:52 pm

I understand there are 3 main methods by which people generally learn, with most having preferences and strengths between them...
Detailed ‘technical’ descriptions, demonstrations where the individual prefers to watch how it is done and kinaesthetic...
how do you work out which is a persons preference?

For instance.... looking at myself, I like to develop a more detailed understanding through verbal description and reading, but to be honest, initially I could probably get away with just watching someone very closely and see how they do it. Certainly it was meeting up with an instructor 4 or 5 years ago that was a game changer... it was only watching it in person where I found I could really appreciate how smooth the casting stroke was... by seeing it helped me ‘feel’ what I needed to do, it was immediately apparent to me where some of my faults were.

But, kinaesthetic would fill me with dread... I can imagine Brits are partic bad for that.... (.... get out my personal space you bloody sex pest :D .....)

would the usual be to start with a quick demo of the cast (or whatever aspect it is you happen to be teaching) with an explanation then slowly add more detail / corrections... and would you say it is obvious from body language / personality as to whether kinaesthetic would help or hinder them...

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Paul Arden
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Re: Teaching method

#2

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:16 pm

I’ve heard this - hearing, seeing, touching. “I feel what you’re saying when I see your lips move!”

Personally I’m unconvinced. If it’s there I haven’t noticed it. If it helps some instructors or some students then of course it’s great.

I think that there are lots of ways of teaching and you can categorise students in many ways. This wouldn’t be the way I do it.

Mel split them into poets and engineers. I don’t do that exactly, but I do think that’s very much smarter. Teaching is a very personal thing and you are really getting into someone’s mind when you are seeing how they learn. Worrying about if they are smelling the cast or tasting it is unimportant to me. You actually have to go deeper than that and figure out how they actually process the data and then find ways to reinforce it.

I did once have an Englishman run away from me and hide in the flower garden. He wasn’t really into the whole touchy feely thing so I only save that for special occasions now. :cool:

Cheers, Paul
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Geenomad
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Re: Teaching method

#3

Post by Geenomad » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:19 pm

Boisker wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:52 pm
I understand there are 3 main methods by which people generally learn, with most having preferences and strengths between them...

would the usual be to start with a quick demo of the cast (or whatever aspect it is you happen to be teaching) with an explanation then slowly add more detail / corrections... and would you say it is obvious from body language / personality as to whether kinaesthetic would help or hinder them...
There are various accounts and counts of the ways in which people prefer to learn. As you say at the beginning most people will express their preferences for a mix rather than single out just one category.

If in doubt as to preferences and what is working and what isn't I would ask the student about other things they have learned, especially movement based things, and what they got the most benefit from, any moments when things clicked and so on. I would also be trying to work out where Myers Briggs would be put them. Again it's about preference and tendency, not simple zero sum categorisation. Intuitives are more likely to need the "why" and the "bigger picture". Sensates are more about "Just tell me what to do".

Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com

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Re: Teaching method

#4

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:36 am

It would be very interesting to hear from an instructor who does get value out of this approach. As I understand it people learn primarily through one of the channels, hearing, seeing or feeling (smelling above was a joke of mine). And I believe you can maybe tell which channel someone uses by the words they use, ie "I see what you are saying" - I might say that for example which would make me a visual learner. I've certainly had friends say "I hear what you are saying" which either makes them sound learners or just more accurate with the use of the English language. If they "feel" what you are saying, then they are maybe hands-on.

Personally I do actually try all three channels - listening to the backcast, seeing the loop, and feeling the rod unload/line in the air - in fact I use all three of these myself when I cast/practise. But then we have the other big one which is mimic/cloning, which to me is very much more fundamental as to how we learn as apes, right from babies in a cot.

Right, must go fishing!

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Will
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Re: Teaching method

#5

Post by Will » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:20 am

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Re: Teaching method

#6

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:51 pm

Excellent articles, Will. Thank you for posting them. There is no question that people learn Flycasting (and everything else) differently and it’s nice to know that these channels may be a red herring.

With regards thinkers/feelers (I assume Engineers/Poets?) I’ve also had problems with this because when it comes to engineers I’ve often felt that the answer was to teach them how to learn poetry. With regards poets then I still think it’s poetry :D

I have one maybe interesting contribution to styles and teaching methods. When I first started teaching I had read PMP’s Fly Casting Handbook and then - being naive and innocent - promptly thought that this was the way to cast. Shortly after this I met Mel Krieger and realised that it probably wasn’t :D I had gone from untrained to “thumb on a curtain rail” to “puller”. Pulling was pretty exciting stuff back then.

But there is a certain type of gentlemen. He is a sergeant major or a city lawyer or a merchant banker - unless he also plays squash in which case he is excluded. And for some reason if you try to teach them pulling and feel it’s going to be a long and unsuccessful lesson. However, teach them PMP’s thumb on a curtain rail and bingo, the guy can cast! I don’t know why.

Mel was right about one thing however; if you can really connect with your student you are going to get great results. I think this comes back to being apes. Mime, mimic, copying coupled with practise games and hands-on experiments, reinforced with analogies that can then be used later to recall the feeling of when it works - this is all very basic learning techniques that work at a very primitive level. And for them to work subliminally you need trust.

For me personally as a coach it’s about having a eye for body movement and then finding ways to mould that into greater efficiency. It’s truly quite fascinating. I’m really fortunate at the moment having this tie between very challenging fishing casting and guiding for jungle fish, which is giving me repeat customers. I’ve never had a core base of repeat customers before and it’s awesome to see how you can really develop their cast over time.

In a lesson you can often take someone up a level and hopefully give them the practise drills to go up a level afterwards and certainly reinforce what they have learned. But if you get the opportunity to do that once or twice a year for four of five years it’s incredible what you and they can achieve.

Video is great. The Hudl App is outstanding but it has to be used in small doses of course. In terms of showing really what it is you want to show there is nothing else quite like it. Once again that’s cloning pure and simple. You film them. They film you. And then you split screen in slow motion to show the difference. It’s always a question as to what takes longer so it’s something I’m more likely to use to break through a problem I can’t manoeuvre through quickly.

I mention this because that’s where I’ve well and truly jumped off the bus with different ways of learning because I’ve never had a student not get a massive result from this parallel video technique. And that’s all visual.

Cheers, Paul
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Will
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Re: Teaching method

#7

Post by Will » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:10 pm

Totally agree about Hudl. It’s a brilliant way to build detailed awareness of movement. For me awareness is the key!
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Geenomad
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Re: Teaching method

#8

Post by Geenomad » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:40 pm

Two articles, one by a journalist who clearly doesn't understand the subject matter or its practical application, do not constitute a thorough review of the literature but rather the expression of an opinion.

Google Scholar might be a better place to look for anyone interested in researching either learning styles or MBTI and its typical context of use.

Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com

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Will
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Re: Teaching method

#9

Post by Will » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:22 am

Apologies for not submitting a thorough scientific review here 😁. My aim was to make the point that both “learning styles” and Myers-Briggs are controversial.

My view is that any fly casting instructor who tries to ascertain someone’s “preferred learning style” and tries to stick slavishly to it, will struggle. The big insight should be that we can all learn in different ways at different times. The challenge is to be aware of this and find the best way through for the person concerned.

I’m sure there are some benefits in MB testing in some circumstances. Having seen, and been through a few MB tests (giving varying results - done by qualified people), and seeing how these results can be horribly misinterpreted, and applied, there’s no way I’d try using it in a fly fishing lesson.
Lineslinger
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"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
WC Stewart

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Paul Arden
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Re: Teaching method

#10

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:23 pm

I think it’s important to try everything. It’s not only students who are learning; with every lesson as instructors we are learning too. I first heard about this channelled learning about 8 years ago. What I’m not sure about is as an instructor how you would give a different lesson. A flycasting lesson involves all three channels, seeing and feeling being probably the two most important. I think it would be difficult to learn flycasting without both. See the loop, feel the rod. You need both! So at a minimum you need two channels here. And in order to communicate we speak - it’s difficult although not impossible to teach without speaking. In particular we use speech to describe feel.

So I would think that every lesson involves all three channels and they are all important for every student - if you don’t have one of them you are at a disadvantage. If a student is most able to learn through one channel do we not run with what is working anyway?

Does anyone have any examples in flycasting? And can they explain how to use this theory and how to amend the lesson in a way that we can try to duplicate it?

As I say I mostly use cloning techniques. Copy/mirrored casting. Side by side video. Casting side by side. Occasionally I cast with the student using one rod, but mostly I like a rod each. I’m a strong believer in this method of learning because I see the results.

I occasionally ask the student to close his eyes. That’s always interesting!

I’m an skeptical, but I do always try everything. I remember Jon Allen once told me he was getting good results starting teaching with the Double Haul. So I tried it of course. But I didn’t get such good results :D

Thanks,
Paul
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