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FFI CI exam Tailing loops

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bartdezwaan
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FFI CI exam Tailing loops

#1

Post by bartdezwaan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:53 pm

In about two weeks I am going to take the CI exam.
There is only one part that makes me nervous.
Tailing loops:
The test requires you to explain and demonstrate 3 faults that cause tailing loops.
1. Improper application of force
2. Creep
3. To narrow of a casting arc

I have spoken and seen different people and they do not all say the same thing about this.
Creep
Regarding Creep. Recently someone told me the tailing loop from creep comes from the fact that the line straightens while you are already coming forward. This straightening causes a sudden "pull" on the rod tip, which causes a small dip in the rod tip path.

I do believe creep can lead to tailing loops. But not the creep itself. I think it is the fact that you are getting out of stroke and overpower the last bit to try to get the line moving.

To narrow of a casting arc
Regarding the casting arc. The most heard story is that to small of a casting arc causes a concave tip path and thus a tailing loop.

While theoretically this sounds true. I don't believe this is what happens to students. The only way It seems sensible to me is that a small casting arc is leading to a tailing loop is again because you run out of room and try to overpower at the end.

So the conclusion is it is always improper application of force. I know Lasse has been saying this for a long time, but I wonder if I get away with an explanation like this, on an exam.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

Cheers, Bart

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James9118
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Re: FFI CI exam Tailing loops

#2

Post by James9118 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:00 pm

Bart,

I agree with you and Lasse. Take boxing gloves with you :D

James.

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Paul Arden
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Re: FFI CI exam Tailing loops

#3

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm

Everything resolves to application of force however splitting this into various sub causes helps an instructor. For example if the problem is Creep it’s a different fix to finishing the haul too soon but both are improper applications of force.

Unfortunately the IFF have some odd definition for Creep that fits robots and not people. Be that as it may Creep results in too small a casting arc (for the bend in the rod) and hence a tail. I don’t agree with the explanation you were told as always being the case for the reason for tails. Indeed it can also apply to a cast without Creep.

Some more info here of course https://www.sexyloops.com/flycast/tailing-loops/

Good luck! I’m sure you’ll do well.

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: FFI CI exam Tailing loops

#4

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:36 pm

Who's your examiners?

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jarmo
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Re: FFI CI exam Tailing loops

#5

Post by jarmo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:37 pm

bartdezwaan wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:53 pm
In about two weeks I am going to take the CI exam.
There is only one part that makes me nervous.
Tailing loops:
The test requires you to explain and demonstrate 3 faults that cause tailing loops.
1. Improper application of force
2. Creep
3. To narrow of a casting arc

...

So the conclusion is it is always improper application of force.
I agree. Well, someone would say that all problems are improper application of force, because the only way we can cast is by applying force to the rod (and, possibly, line).

However, have you read the FFI CI study guide? In my opinion, they are actually on the spot there, differentiating between abrupt application of force and insufficient casting arcs.

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bartdezwaan
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Re: FFI CI exam Tailing loops

#6

Post by bartdezwaan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:10 pm

@jarmo. I have not read the latest version off the study guide. Will make sure I do. I have a 2007 version here.

I just have a small problem with the way most people explain the cause of the tailing loop.
Let's take this video from Paul: https://www.sexyloops.com/flycast/tailing-loops/
Sorry Paul. I rate you very high as a caster :D, but I am going to be critical.
Let's take the Creep and to small of a casing arc examples. Paul explains that both problems cause two small of a casting arc and a dip in you rod tip path.
At first sight this makes perfect sense. This would however mean that if you stay smooth, you would still throw a tail because the small arc describes a concave path. Which in theory might be correct, but is something a never see happening.
I think Paul demonstrations show something different then what he is saying. As can be clearly seen on the video, Paul is making the tail by doing exactly the same thing again. Throw it hard at the end. I am sure he could have prevented those tailing loops even with the Creep and other stuff included.

I would like to approach the problem a bit different and would say the cause of the tailing loop is an inappropriate application of force.
When does this happen to the student:
1. He just is not smooth
2. He gives himself to little arc/stroke space to be able to cast the line. This will cause the line to either not unroll, or the caster tries the force things by casting to hard and cause a tail.

Maybe I am just nitpicking, and in the end it may all be the same.

Cheers, Bart

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Paul Arden
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Re: FFI CI exam Tailing loops

#7

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:45 pm

Probably, I don't pretend to have perfected isolated tailing loop causes in presentations. I'm sure that with practise I could do it but I don't think it's necessary. What you do need to do in teaching is isolate the cause/s of tails and find ways to remedy them. Sometimes it is not easy and can be quite subtle. Particularly transitions between back and forward casts can be hard to detect and even harder to fix.

When we first started analysing the causes of the dip in the rod tip's path we had something like 10 causes. This has been narrowed down to 5 common ones (I think) for me, three examples for the IFF, one for Lasse. There are lots of things to try in order to cure them, and they vary according to the cause. With a perpetual tailer it might be easier to completely rebuild the stroke, so ingrained is the cause. It's sometimes harder to make a small change than a big one.

Cheers, Paul
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bartdezwaan
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Re: FFI CI exam Tailing loops

#8

Post by bartdezwaan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:49 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:45 pm
three examples for the IFF, one for Lasse.
:laugh:

jarmo
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Re: FFI CI exam Tailing loops

#9

Post by jarmo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:26 pm

bartdezwaan wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:10 pm
When does this happen to the student:
1. He just is not smooth
2. He gives himself to little arc/stroke space to be able to cast the line. This will cause the line to either not unroll, or the caster tries the force things by casting to hard and cause a tail.
As far as I have understood, that would be about it, and no need to get the new CI guide for this purpose. (I did not want to start quoting it here, the document being a commercial product and all.)

I also think that what you have there is a lot more specific than just "inappropriate application of force."

Maybe we have a new summary for causes of tailing (the 3 cause version): being a jerk, being a creep, or just being generally narrow-minded.

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bartdezwaan
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Re: FFI CI exam Tailing loops

#10

Post by bartdezwaan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:35 pm

@jarmo. I like your definition. :D

I already bought the new CI guide. :blush:
Just scanned it, but it seems like they do mention that a lot comes down to insufficient space to proper accelerate.

One thing just came up.
Doesn’t it make more sense to say “insufficient arc for the length of line”, instead of “insufficient arc for the bend in the rod”, when giving instruction.
This might be harder to instantly visualize and seems farther away from the theory. But to me it seems closer to the core of the problem.

Cheer, Bart

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