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Closed stance (accuracy) - big back loop

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Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Closed stance (accuracy) - big back loop

#11

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo »

Paul Arden wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:47 pm Hope that makes it clearer :D
What it makes clearer for me is that our wrists might be very different!

I lift for the back cast with my wrist at maximum ulnar deviation and flip to max radial deviation at the end. The sum of the two angles is less than just from neutral to max extension... on my wrist anyway. But, I think your downloaded diagram indicates a similar thing.

Are you sure you are not also using a different grip in those two photos?

In the photo example of your max radial deviation, your little finger encircles the grip. The other photo is not clear, but it looks like your little finger is laying more along than around.

When I teach I often explain the difference by calling the first one a "suitcase" grip. It is commonly what most use as a default. I try to get them to use more of a "screwdriver" grip. (I think Borger calls it a "key" grip?)

The difference can be demonstrated by asking someone to hold their hand out flat and palm up. Then touch the little finger to the thumb. Two muscle masses become apparent: one at the base of the thumb (thenar eminence?) and one below the little finger (hypothenar eminence?). There is a definite crease between the two.

With a suitcase grip, the last three fingers wrap around the back of the cork handle and trap it against the hypothenar region. It also puts the rear part of the rod at an extreme angle to the forearm. It is common with beginners who think they need to grip the rod much harder than necessary.

With the screwdriver grip, the rear cork handle is placed between the two masses in the crease. The last three fingers do not so much encircle the cork. Instead, the fingers pinch the cork against the thenar mass. This is grip is less natural, but secure enough when learned and, importantly to me, aligns the rod much closer to the forearm. The rod becomes almost a straight extension of the upper arm, the wrist arc smaller, and allows fewer degrees of freedom to screw up tracking.

But, as I have said before... I do not believe one size fits all.
With appreciation and apologies to Ray Charles…

“If it wasn’t for AI, we wouldn’t have no I at all.”
Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Closed stance (accuracy) - big back loop

#12

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo »

A little trick I just picked up from Mac is kinda funny but functional in a very practical way.

If a students back cast is less than optimal due to either or both not lifting the elbow or over-rotating the wrist at the end, have them bring the rod butt right up between their eyes and to the forehead!

They have to lift the elbow to get the rod up there... and they will definitely stop before rotating too far back! :D

Once they get that working, he has them move the rod back out to the side of the head.

He uses the saying, "Lift, then flip" to get them to not rotate too early.

I just love simple things like that!
With appreciation and apologies to Ray Charles…

“If it wasn’t for AI, we wouldn’t have no I at all.”
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Paul Arden
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Re: Closed stance (accuracy) - big back loop

#13

Post by Paul Arden »

I lift for the back cast with my wrist at maximum ulnar deviation and flip to max radial deviation at the end. The sum of the two angles is less than just from neutral to max extension... on my wrist anyway. But, I think your downloaded diagram indicates a similar thing.
On every cast? My main reason for using extension is so that I can, with control, make very narrow wrist movements. I simply can’t do that using the wrist in the way you do - yes our wrists must be different :D

I do often go to maximum Extension, although in the forward cast I may not return to even the neutral position. Certainly not into flexion. The amount of wrist movement can be just a few degrees.

I have to say though Gary, when I cast heavier SW gear 10WT and so on, I attempt to block my wrist almost completely and cast in the plane you do.

There is a small grip change between the two grips. The pressure point to the cork with the wrist in radial plane for me is the thumb, for the flexion grip it is, erm, the base of the first finger. (The palm directly opposite the knuckle of my index finger).

Incidentally I don’t grip the rod with any pressure from the pinkie finger, it’s pretty much all at the top of the hand - interesting :D

Yes that’s a good one! I learned that from Peter MacKenzie-Philps. Go to the middle of your head and you knock your hat off! How do you avoid a sore head at maximum radial deviation? Incidentally I find it good training to go right, centre of head, left and back and so on. It brings in cross shoulder casting while fixing excessive wrist. I have actually had people knock their hats off :laugh:

Cheers, Paul
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Paul Arden
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Re: Closed stance (accuracy) - big back loop

#14

Post by Paul Arden »

Just to be on the same page Gary, there is a short video on here of this grip I recommend for accuracy https://www.sexyloops.com/flycast/the-grip/

For me it’s really good for that “micro-second wrist”. With heavy outfits however I find the rod “gets away from me” when I try to use the wrist, so instead I attempt to block the wrist movement with the wrist in the “deviations” plane.

Of course there is much more to it than that. I frequently use pronation on the backcast and supination on the forward (torque twist for example) also for the 170 distance I use Flexion on the backcast and ulnar deviation on the forward (but with the cradle grip closing the third finger to turn over the rod... I was shown an incredibly effective use of flexion for the turning over the rod on the 170 by Ben Dixon which I have an in/out love affair with :laugh:).

One thing I do find however is for most people this flexion/extension grip is something they’ve never tried and when they do they almost always find positive results from it. For me I’ve always said it’s like “throwing a ball”

Here is a photo from a page written a long time ago...
1CA481C7-7E12-4C2E-8C79-BE00F0513DDA.jpeg

I really have to go through these old pages and bring them up to date. I’m never really sure how to do that. 20 years ago I was a different person. Maybe a “this was bollocks” disclaimer footnote at the bottom of every page :D :D

https://www.sexyloops.com/flycasting/getagrip.shtml

(Incidentally the “flip-flop style” was never supposed to be taken seriously :laugh: )

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Geenomad
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Re: Closed stance (accuracy) - big back loop

#15

Post by Geenomad »

Mangrove Cuckoo wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:57 am
With the screwdriver grip, the rear cork handle is placed between the two masses in the crease. The last three fingers do not so much encircle the cork. Instead, the fingers pinch the cork against the thenar mass. This is grip is less natural, but secure enough when learned and, importantly to me, aligns the rod much closer to the forearm.
Nicely put Gary. It also fits well with a natural throwing action.

Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
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