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Grips?

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nicholasfmoore
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Grips?

#1

Post by nicholasfmoore » Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:34 am

Hi all,

What are some of your favourite grips to teach?

1. Thumb on top
2. Extended finger grip (or key grip)
3. V grip (like above except rotated left a bit for the right handed caster)
4. 3 point contact grip
5. Finger pointing grip

I'd be interested to see photos of each of these if you have the time. I've seen the three point contact grip described in one book, and in another book it was completely different. The V grip is my favourite for the vast majority of my casting. 😁

Have I missed any out?

All the best!
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Paul Arden
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Re: Grips?

#2

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:08 am

I’ve always bent the thumb for 3 - it feels more natural and less likely to cramp :)

“Cradle Grip” for the 170. That’s what Dan McCrimmon called it and I haven’t seen it discussed with another name. I also use it to delay force on dynamic rolls.

Cheers, Paul
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nicholasfmoore
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Re: Grips?

#3

Post by nicholasfmoore » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:24 pm

Thank's, Paul. Interesting that you bend the thumb, what grip do you use for fishing?

You'll have to show me the cradle grip, i've seen it spoken about but i've never seen it in real life :) however for someone with faulty tracking it seems to help to have them hold the rod incredibly gently with sort of an open hand and make the lift like this, when they get to the stroke they just squeeze to the stop or i tell them to think about hitting the grip into the back of the hand, seems to work quite well for that initial pickup :)

To add a bit to that, i really don't think the thumb on top is a great grip for beginners especially if they want to look at their back cast. I'll probably be ridiculed for even mentioning that :laugh:

All the best
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Paul Arden
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Re: Grips?

#4

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:16 am

what grip do you use for fishing?
I use them all. For example for side casting and backhand overpowered curves I use the finger point grip. V grip or thumb on top, really depends on wrist plane. Cradle Grip (and I don't like the name but there we go) is a different grip on back and this one on forwards. Grip-shift will definitely be in this page https://www.sexyloops.com/flycast/compe ... ance-cast/
The ergonomic grips is much more suited however to how I mostly hold the rod, but I hold it that way anyway. I've always held it that way even though I've since been told it's wrong :laugh:
I don't mind how people grip the rod, I'm much more interested in how they use their wrists. And it's that that really has an impact on what grip feels right.
i really don't think the thumb on top is a great grip for beginners
Which one do you teach first?

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Grips?

#5

Post by nicholasfmoore » Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:44 pm

Hi Paul,

I use them all too :) For closed stance accuracy i can see the advantage of thumb on top, but when you open up you need a different grip, especially if you look at your back cast.

I trained/forced myself (many years ago) to keep the thumb nail pointing straight behind me whilst looking at the tracking in the mirror for quite a number of weeks :asleep: In fact, it was more of a side on stance. I got to a certain point behind me and my bicep really hurt, so i abandoned that grip. Absolutely fine for your flip flop though, although i can use my wrist to it's full potential with the V grip, so for your cast i use the V :)

Interesting video, Paul! I think we were talking about tracking and grips a few weeks ago with a light grip. I've seen a few use a death grip and the rod tip zig zags back and forth during the stroke. Interestingly i fixed someones tracking/vastly improved it by moving him to a V grip, was mostly down to twisting the wrist on the back cast (so the thumb nail ends up pointing to your ear as you know). He mentions he found it more comfortable and wondered why he never heard of it, he was always told to keep his thumb on top. He was american, so maybe that was the lefty way?

That's cool! I've only ever seen photos of that grip, never held one in real life and i really want to. Like you i show them all the grips, but everyone seems to default to the V grip which i found very interesting indeed! What do you think of Chinese style?
Which one do you teach first?
I just show them all the grips and ask them "what feels comfortable?" I mention that i use the V grip, and use it for most of my fishing, but that's for me personally and you have to choose one that feels right for you :) Like you i use the finger point for side casting, V grip seems to be a default for students too when showing them the triangle method :) I very much agree with the wrist movement though :)

I favor a side on stance to get them started with the triangle method, once they are comfortable throwing loops i'll ask them to stand casting foot forward, trying to cast in all planes. Think you do this as well? A lot of anglers use open stance for everything over here, i don't know why, even casting the leader to a trout. Did you notice this when you lived here? What grip do you teach beginners?

All the best!
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Re: Grips?

#6

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:27 am

Hi Nick,

It’s all over the world that most anglers use open stance and have never tried closed stance. I suspect this is most natural particularly when we first start and want to watch the backcast. Lefty was V-grip - but V-grip is just thumb on top using the wrist in flexion as opposed to deviation. He taught this so that he could easily reach the rod behind him.

I start beginners with Thumb on top and quickly move to V and finger grips. I’m still not sure why you can’t see your backcast with the thumb grip!! If I turn my head it makes no difference how I’ve gripped the rod.

Most Continental European instructors start with the finger pointing grip. It certainly helps eliminate many of the early wrist problems.

Cheers, Paul
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Bernd Ziesche
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Re: Grips?

#7

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:38 pm

Hi Nicholas,
in my teaching experience 3 is a number, which most students can well remember.
This is why I teach 3 grips:
1. Index finger on top
2. Thumb on top
3. V-grip
Following this thread we find 7 grips already. 7 is a hell lot in a teaching point of view!
Pictures indeed might be helpful.
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Bernd
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Carol
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Re: Grips?

#8

Post by Carol » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:11 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:27 am
Most Continental European instructors start with the finger pointing grip. It certainly helps eliminate many of the early wrist problems.
Being a woman and inherently not as strong as you guys, I find the thumb on top to give me more strength. Subsequent to that discovery, I notice that's what Joan Wulff does too. It seems to help me. I've played with the V-grip and the finger-on-top grip for accuracy (per Mac Brown and Gary Borger), but my index finger gets too stressed. Maybe I'm not doing it right.

Initially the thumb on top was giving me "many of the early wrist problems", e.g., bad tracking and over-rotating .... Then JW gave me this ingenious little aid he came up with using a pool noodle that he cut into the shape of a wedge. The instruction is the narrow end is inserted between the rod and wrist and "you can't drop it, and you can't crush it." When trying to solve those beginner problems, sticking the rod butt in the shirt sleeve does nothing to teach the muscles and neurons, but this thing does. Once I got in the habit of having a firm wrist, then I could introduce some rotation. It helped me anyway.
JWWedge.jpg
P.S. Paul, your distance casting video is fantastic. Plus, I love the music. Who is it?
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

nicholasfmoore
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Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:41 pm

Re: Grips?

#9

Post by nicholasfmoore » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:50 pm

V-grip is just thumb on top using the wrist in flexion as opposed to deviation
absolutely :)

You can look at your back cast with any grip of course :), but for me, thumb on top with a vertical stroke and closed stance really hurts my neck, almost straining to look at the back cast. If i ask someone to use an open stance and look at their back cast with a thumb on top grip (especially if they haven't done this before) it introduces a significant tracking error. :) V grip and finger on top do seem to go straighter, should have said this first. :)

Most Continental European instructors start with the finger pointing grip. It certainly helps eliminate many of the early wrist problems.
I have seen this, i do reserve it for people that bend their wrist far too much, or even for those that try and turn the cork into dust :cool:
Following this thread we find 7 grips already. 7 is a hell lot in a teaching point of view!
Hi Bernd, yes it is a bit mad! I really wanted one thread with all the grips, i've seen 2 identical grips described and they were explained very differently. Like you i try and teach most things in three's, stance, PUALD, Roll cast etc.

I show them how to grip without the rod first, then i introduce the rod. Do you do this too? Pictures are very helpful.
Being a woman and inherently not as strong as you guys, I find the thumb on top to give me more strength. Subsequent to that discovery, I notice that's what Joan Wulff does too. It seems to help me. I've played with the V-grip and the finger-on-top grip for accuracy (per Mac Brown and Gary Borger), but my index finger gets too stressed. Maybe I'm not doing it right.
Hi Carol, whatever grip gives you the most comfort is very important, as well as using the wrist effectively :) how hard are you gripping the handle and how big is the rod? It's funny you should mention that, i had a car accident a couple of years ago, so i can't lift as much as i could. I used to be an organ builder and lift 55kg comfortably all day. I've had to change the way i cast a bit to avoid discomfort.

That's a cool little gadget! A cool instructor trick uses the reel, you turn the whole rod upside down and keep this tucked underneath your forearm (ulna bone). Think peter hayes uses bog roll on top of the reel seat?
sticking the rod butt in the shirt sleeve does nothing to......


I agree, i really don't like this. It also ends up being far too jerky, and looks like you are in the roaring 20's doing the robot :P

All the best
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Paul Arden
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Re: Grips?

#10

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:47 am

Hi Carol,

that's a great idea, I shall certainly make one up and try it - thanks!!!

The music is Zoran Marinkovic. I was chatting to him this week because there was a copyright claim made on that video last week, which is BS because no-one can sound like Zoran!!! Loads of Fps from Zoran in an earlier version of Sexyloops http://www.sexyloops.com/2007.shtml?0406 :D

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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