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First Lesson

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Paul Arden
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Re: First Lesson

#11

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:26 am

Yep bank didn’t work. That’s what happens when you bank with the smallest bank in the world in Montana with only four branches :D

It’s funny two people sharing the same rod can actually work wonders for some people. It really depends on who we are teaching. But on the down side is it can be intimidating or even downright creepy. So it’s extremely rare that I use it nowadays.

I don’t know if I’ve told you this story but I actually had one person run away from me when I put my hand near his. That really put me off using it!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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nicholasfmoore
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Re: First Lesson

#12

Post by nicholasfmoore » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:40 am

Hi Carol,
What does the student learn when their muscles are not engaged? It's all about training the muscles and the neurons that fire them, or getting the "feel."
For me it's about application of force with intermediate students, you can show them what they are doing (incorrectly) and then show them what to do differently in order to improve. :) It's only a quick few seconds to show them what it feels like, and it's a last resort for me personally. An example is if a student is casting too slowly for a horizontal cast. You can grab the blank above the cork and show them how much quicker it should be if they aren't getting analogies, they then pick up on the tempo (going between the two crust corners of the pizza faster) don't know Paul's take on this. They have to be comfortable, and you must say "would you mind if i show you?" i've only used this twice.... :) i do see where you are coming from, though!

How long was your lesson, was it a whole day? If it was then i would have certainly covered mechanics, but beginning lessons is more about getting people started, they will only remember 3 things anyway so it's worth minimising casting terms. Coordination is built over a period of time using repetition. Sorry that you have had to go through that :( what theory would you say is helpful? For me, if they can remember SLP, pause and minimising slack, then it's good. Often i set out a tape measure and ask student to slide good loops on the ground, stopping on the back and forward cast with 20' of line, then move onto keeping it aloft. :)

The pizza analogy is a great one (yes, peter morse) i think he came up with it? I don't even like pizza, but it stuck in my mind so it must be a good thing!

Thank's for that, Paul!
The common thing during that drill is at some point the line hits the rod tip. It’s so common in fact that I demonstrate it and then show how lifting the elbow in the backcast and dropping it slightly on the forwards fixes the problem.


It's great when that happens :D

All the best
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Paul Arden
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Re: First Lesson

#13

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:24 am

Well they might only remember three things but I always take notes on my phone (one-to-one lessons) and send them over. I write them out a little bit - but not much - and add a few links if I think that will help. I also follow up and stay in touch to see what’s going on. If I have video I’ll send that over too. I want structured practise, so that the next time they come we can move forwards.

I don’t ask about grabbing the rod personally. I think that puts everyone in a really awkward situation. I’ll only do it now if I’m absolutely sure it’s ok. Some places it’s definitely ok and some places definitely not. For example here in Malaysia, Muslim women do not shake hands with men. Chinese women do and it’s expected. But not the Malays - don’t even offer your hand! England is handshake, stiff upper lip, pat on the back. It’s not a feely-feely country. Italy is kissy-kissy, men too. You’re ok to touch hands with Italians!

Basically if there is a rule, it is when men kiss when they meet then you’re ok to touch hands :D

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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nicholasfmoore
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Re: First Lesson

#14

Post by nicholasfmoore » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:55 am

Well they might only remember three things but I always take notes on my phone (one-to-one lessons) and send them over. I write them out a little bit - but not much - and add a few links if I think that will help. I also follow up and stay in touch to see what’s going on. If I have video I’ll send that over too. I want structured practise, so that the next time they come we can move forwards.
I do the same with email, Paul. I used to ask a piano student to bring an empty book with them for the first lesson, and this became their 'practice guide' what they did excellently, and what they need to practice to improve their skills. :) I always end up linking your master class somewhere in there :cool:

I should have specified that they 'more than like will only remember three things' of course you are right though :)

Thank's Paul, that's very enlightening mate. I think i will stop asking now if i have to do kinesthetic learning. I've just thought about this, i've never pushed someones fingers down when they are learning to play something, i do see where you are coming from though! :laugh:

All the best

P.S.

How's the lake?
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Re: First Lesson

#15

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:46 pm

I’ve watched this hand on hand thing unfold many times. There are quite a few variations of it. I’ve seen instructors ask if it’s “ok to touch hands?” The student says yes but you can tell from the whole body language that it’s not. There are a lot of differences in human behaviour here. Mostly I think they are cultural differences. However as an instructor if you’ve made your client feel uncomfortable then you’ve set the lesson back. Even if you ask politely and they say no, then you’ve made them feel uncomfortable!

The opposite is true too of course. If one is uncomfortable touching hands then it’s being mistaken for a sexual thing. And that is weird! I grew up with that too but I worked hard to get rid of my inhibitions, particularly living in Eastern Europe - otherwise I would have spent all my time there feeling awkward.

So for me it’s situation and cultural dependent. If you have to ask then it’s probably best not to.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Re: First Lesson

#16

Post by nicholasfmoore » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:14 pm

Great advice, Paul. Thanks! If you can get away without doing it then it's much better of course.

How many times have you come across a student that has the line on the wrong way roun, even though a shop has done it?!

All the best
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Carol
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Re: First Lesson

#17

Post by Carol » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:17 pm

Thanks Nick and Paul. You've pretty much provided me some validation that holding the rod with the student is not a preferred method, regardless of the culture because, even in a touchy-feely culture there are exceptions. Personally, I find the practice awkward. :blush: But Nick, I can see where it would be very using to convey the need to increase speed during side-arm casting. And thank you for the detail on what you include in lessons and what you hope the student walks away with. I'm trying to imaging sliding loops on the ground. I've not seen this done. Anyone have a video of what's going on?

As for notes, I've prepared some logo'd handouts based on the scripts I've had to write for the teaching portion of the CCI exam. They contain the essence of the lesson and include diagrams. Adding links is a great idea, and they too probably will be to the MC and the new-ish FFI learning center. If I write notes about the lesson on the back of the handout, it could be useful for practicing between lessons. I know I've left lessons many times forgettomg something we talked about at the beginning of the lesson. Bringing a notepad and writing things down throughout the lesson would be beneficial for me personally, if nothing else than to drill things into my brain.

Friggin' snowed here last night here. I try to quell my disappointment by repeating:
A Fish's
Wish Is
Water
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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Re: First Lesson

#18

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:58 pm

I don’t know how many times Nick. More than once, less than ten :) Do they still fit those bloody braid sleeves that are about 10 inches long?

Handouts are great Carol. I try to give these during group lessons. It’s mostly just really the lesson plan. The note taking for me is predominantly 1-1 lessons and intermediates and above. If i was still regularly giving beginners courses I think I’d have a really nice handout nowadays. Actually one of the things I was thinking about when I started this topic was exactly that.

Most of my teaching is and has always been people with a quite a lot of fishing experience but little casting coaching. That’s another topic!

As an aside, I think learning to take good notes for the student should be something that’s taught in instructor schools. I’m sure it’s something many of us do, but I’ve never had any training in it and I’m sure I’d learn a great deal from that. My notes are mostly the Eureka moments and what we’ve covered, along with what to work on and how to practise.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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nicholasfmoore
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Re: First Lesson

#19

Post by nicholasfmoore » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:24 am

Thanks Nick and Paul. You've pretty much provided me some validation that holding the rod with the student is not a preferred method, regardless of the culture because, even in a touchy-feely culture there are exceptions. Personally, I find the practice awkward. :blush: But Nick, I can see where it would be very using to convey the need to increase speed during side-arm casting. And thank you for the detail on what you include in lessons and what you hope the student walks away with. I'm trying to imaging sliding loops on the ground. I've not seen this done. Anyone have a video of what's going on?
No problem, Carol! Incidentally i do actually, it's a video of Bill sliding loops on the ground :D



That's awesome! Clear concise notes are the key i think, that's a given in all teaching. What they have done well, what areas need improving for next time, and drills to help improve the problem areas. Using something called the 'sandwich method' is also a good way of wrapping areas of improvement with positive praise. Ok, outside 'beginner lessons' but one good thing is to teach something positive. For example, if someone is creeping, then teach them to drift. :)
Friggin' snowed here last night here. I try to quell my disappointment by repeating:
A Fish's
Wish Is
Water


I like that! :laugh: It's been pretty cool in the UK for a couple of days, nothing as extreme as that where i am :laugh:
Paul Arden wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:58 pm
I don’t know how many times Nick. More than once, less than ten :) Do they still fit those bloody braid sleeves that are about 10 inches long?

Handouts are great Carol. I try to give these during group lessons. It’s mostly just really the lesson plan. The note taking for me is predominantly 1-1 lessons and intermediates and above. If i was still regularly giving beginners courses I think I’d have a really nice handout nowadays. Actually one of the things I was thinking about when I started this topic was exactly that.

Most of my teaching is and has always been people with a quite a lot of fishing experience but little casting coaching. That’s another topic!

As an aside, I think learning to take good notes for the student should be something that’s taught in instructor schools. I’m sure it’s something many of us do, but I’ve never had any training in it and I’m sure I’d learn a great deal from that. My notes are mostly the Eureka moments and what we’ve covered, along with what to work on and how to practise.

Cheers, Paul


Ha, absolutely! Of course the fly line isn't pushed up to the double over section so the loop just hinges :upside: I have also seen some horrible nail knots out of fly shops as well, i had to re tie someones. I'd definitely buy 'Ardens tips' if you made something mate :D
Most of my teaching is and has always been people with a quite a lot of fishing experience but little casting coaching. That’s another topic!
That's the same for me, double haul and faults. That's pretty much it. I do the same with note taking too, what we covered, what went well, what they 'felt or imagined' when they got the feeling of casting, drills to improve technique and how to practice effectively.

All the best!
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Carol
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Re: First Lesson

#20

Post by Carol » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:39 pm

Thanks for the video, Nick! That's one of Bill's videos I hadn't seen. That teaching drill would work well on fresh snow if you can get beginning students to tolerate cold feet. And, as Bill said, it also would work well on concrete, but do you really want to destroy the student's line? Hauling out yards and yards of plastic and duct tape isn't practical. BUT if one could find a gymnasium floor .... :D

Oh, and thanks for the reminder about sandwiching comments. We humans usually need praise to keep motivated. I know I do and don't give myself much of it when practicing except the occasional "that's better." Now there's another topic for posting under the "teaching" section: What do you do to keep students motivated when they are frustrated? What do you do to keep yourself motivated when You are frustrated?
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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