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The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

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John Waters
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#31

Post by John Waters » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:45 am

Thanks Graeme, appreciated.

I was wondering if Marty was extending line during his false casts, prior to him shooting line on his delivery. I suspect he was, based on the varying height of line moving past his body on his backcast. It got lower as he added casts. Now that I know he was casting a carry length of 70 to 80 feet, that would also indicate that he was increasing his carry length whilst false casting.

Increasing forearm stroke is not translation, rather it is rotation and it all happens before the forearm reaches the vertical on the forward cast and it happens after the torso rotation. Your videos Illustrate a technique that uses little behind the shoulder forearm arc and I suspect it is happening before the torso has rotated. That is fine if that is what you desire, but it does limit hand speed.

My concern is still the height of the line as it passes the body on the backcast. To carry 90 feet of line and shoot your maximum distance, I believe you want a passing height of the fly leg to mirror that achieved by Magnus and have that fly leg start and stay, above the rod leg, even being parallel to the ground on the backcast, rather than the fly leg crossing the rod leg during the backcast and consequently having less speed. Not sure if Christopher is casting the same line length as Magnus, it looks a lot shorter.

It all comes down to how far you want to cast, and refining your technique to achieve your desired distance. That is why the distances cast with MED-like line profiles has increased so dramatically in recent years, it reflects the technique like you see with Magnus, and I suspect that will evolve again as we learn more about hand speed generation from other sports.
I believe the key learnings are in the illustrated backcast differences not the forward cast profiles, albeit Bernd’s dangly bits are present in both.
In my opinion, I would add one other change needed to the list you have provided Paul about changes needed to increase Christopher’s carry length to say, 90 feet.That being to increase the height of his fly leg as it passes the body on the backcast.
I say that because I started to cast the MED 5 weight line with a short stroke, opening the rod arc with the wrist on the backcast. I too thought that was a more efficient stroke than that shown by Magnus, but in doing so I failed dismally. It was easy to get a carry of 70 feet, but no way was I going to get 90 feet. Surely it is only another 20 feet of carry, it just needs a bit more practice with my chosen stroke. The short stroke was never going to cut it. My backcast fly leg was too slow and too low. It was only when I got a backcast line profile like Magnus that I started to increase carry to the required length for long distances with that line. I stopped worrying about the forward cast, and learnt the secret to MED distance is the profile and speed of the backcast. I was a bloody idiot because I always knew that to be the case with shorter carry casting but the required longer carry lengths made me adopt the Magnus type stroke to get long distances.

Always enjoy these discussions, hope we can catch up for a cast and a chat one day in a more flexible world than that in which we all currently live.

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#32

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:32 pm

I’m with Lasse. Throwing the rod forwards shouldn’t prevent the loop from unrolling. There are plenty of examples of untethered loops unrolling.

Re Chris, he would have to throw the line over the tip and not over the side. That would be the first adjustment to make. His intention in these videos is to throw pretty loops, so they are tilted. I don’t think you can use this as an example of lengthening carry! Chris is an exceptional caster but he’s never gone down the competition route where these things start to take on real importance. You must go over the top of the rod for your longest carry and your longest delivery, otherwise you’re not in the race.

Matty was at one of our shootouts in Scotland and did very well. I can’t remember where exactly he came. If that was the one that James took his HT Comp 5 then he came fourth perhaps. But it might have been another year? Anyway very competitive and consistent too. He asked me how I thought he could improve. My honest answer was to lift weights. He’s a very explosive caster and I would like to see him develop that trait, he would be highly competitive if he did this IMO. He’s one of the best I’ve seen.

Something I’ve noticed over the years is all these style arguments are based around shorter casts, less carry, but when we go for maximum performance there are a lot less ways to skin a cat. For example if you are throwing 120 then you can throw 100 laying on your back :D

Cheers, Paul
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Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#33

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:09 pm

Talking about forearm rotation and arc made me think of a recent photo of a rookie NFL quarterback that was just in the sports news:
F33C7785-A7D6-44CC-9677-2C2583662DBB.jpeg
What the photo doesn't show is the rapid torso and shoulder rotation that is also involved.

Making things fly far in different sports seems to involve similar physical components.
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

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James9118
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#34

Post by James9118 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:15 pm

I recently did a test where I compared my casting with a shooting head in a tethered (normal) configuration and non-tethered i.e. the running line was cut at my hauling hand. I know Lasse has done this previously and my results agreed with his - the longest cast and highest average came from the non-tethered arrangement.

Now, I know the above was chucking for all-out distance. My concern about the 'move the rod tip forward' test on a low power cast is that it's human nature to anticipate doing something different i.e. on this stroke I'm going to reduce the tension. Without having the rod instrumented it's going to be impossible to determine whether the caster/casting stroke has had any influence on the possible collapse of the cast.

James.

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Paul Arden
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#35

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:28 pm

Nice photo Gary. Looks like he’d make a great haul as well :)

[I couldn’t embed the photo either and so downloaded it and uploaded it with the file upload]

For me the techniques are very similar in appearance - as one would expect - we just have the restriction that we must track straight. And of course we have to throw backwards at first as well! Many years ago I read all the coaching advice for javelin that I could find on the Internet - and it’s remarkably similar. In fact there are even Javelin throwers using “closed stance” for distance like Rick Hartman! I like this style too and planned to go back to it this time, but I’m worried I might fall off the roof of the boat!

Cheers, Paul
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Torsten
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#36

Post by Torsten » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:17 pm

@Graeme: Nicely written but IMHO complete bollocks. Sounds very familiar to me, several years ago I've read similar stuff from Carl.

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Graeme H
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#37

Post by Graeme H » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:05 am

Thanks for the constructive input Torsten.
FFi CCI

John Waters
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#38

Post by John Waters » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:38 am

Great photo Gary, thanks for posting.

It illustrates my comments about throwing and casting in this thread. In respect of that, the ball, batt, discus, hammer, javelin or rod are not primary drivers to the distance achieved and that should underpin all technique development and the instruction thereof.

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#39

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:14 am

I agree John. All this teaching that the rod is all that matters and the caster can do anything he feels like, misses the whole point of FC instruction IMO. People don’t come to learn that, they can get that from any book or website. What they come for - or should come for - is a coach’s eye that analyses their body movement. And that’s the very thing that the instructor organisations step around. That’s why I’m interested to hear what Phil says about the golf swing. I bet it’s less about the club and more about the golfer.

Cheers, Paul
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Merlin
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#40

Post by Merlin » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:36 am

Throwing the rod forwards shouldn’t prevent the loop from unrolling. There are plenty of examples of untethered loops unrolling.
I am with Graeme on this point. Pushing the rod forward can cancel the tension in the rod leg (if timely applied), which makes the line fall down. It is something different from a shoot where you just set the tension at the end of the rod leg at zero. The "push" on the rod leg affects the tension at the bottom of the loop. It may not prevent the loop to unroll, but it can put the line down much earlier that you would expect.

Merlin
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