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The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

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Torsten
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#171

Post by Torsten »

I was quite happy discussing this in the physics forum in a thread about this very thing, until you started another thread specifically excluding discussion of waves in loop propagation.
And you can still post there, I see no issues at all. Why not open a new thread about waves. I've started the new thread only because I've found the original thread got too off-topic and I'd like to have a bit more focus on all the other concepts. I admit the topic title was not the best choice.
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#172

Post by Paul Arden »

Just had another session on the roof, Graeme, having fun playing around with different casts.

From this height I can make my backcast vertically upwards, and my forward cast vertically downwards. Surprisingly easily in fact. Anyway I can’t see any way of making this vertical cast fit inside the transverse wave containment. There is nothing transverse about this at all.

So while I think it’s a truly excellent teaching method for throwing narrow loops, and while it is remarkably similar, particularly with the suspended line where we do actually have the classic transverse wave, I just don’t see how it fits the the broad spectrum of casts.

It’s like when you keep taking your shirt to the tailor to make changes, and you have to keep taking it back again for more changes, at some point you just have to say the shirt just doesn’t bloody well fit! And buy a new one.

Amazing potential to spot Gourami from up here. I’m not sure about making shots from this height but you never know!

Cheers, Paul
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Graeme H
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#173

Post by Graeme H »

Paul Arden wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:14 pm I think the loop propagates in the direction the force was applied to the line, and the reason it falls to ground is because of gravity.

Cheers, Paul
Besides this "loop wave", can you find any examples of a mechanical wave* propagating in the direction the force was applied in?

Cheers,
Graeme


* that is not a longitudinal wave
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Paul Arden
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#174

Post by Paul Arden »

Sound waves.
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Graeme H
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#175

Post by Graeme H »

Paul Arden wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:38 pm No I don’t think that the difference is only Amplitude! That’s just me casting on the roof :pirate:
Okay, well what are the other differences? Please analyse the actions you're making and itemise the differences in addition to amplitude that turn it from a transverse wave to a loop.
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#176

Post by Graeme H »

Sound is longitudinal (compression) waves.
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#177

Post by Paul Arden »

Well one obvious point of difference is when I rotate the trajectories through 90 degrees. What direction is the “transverse wave” propagating now?!
7A7DDFD5-E3B4-44E1-921C-EA2ED3E0ACEE.jpeg
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Graeme H
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#178

Post by Graeme H »

I don't know. I want to see where the line actually goes.

But if you don't want to come up with other differences besides amplitude, that's fine. I'll assume you don't find that very interesting and leave it standing there.

To me, if amplitude is the only thing you can find to differentiate a transverse wave from a loop, we are in agreement.

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Graeme
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#179

Post by Paul Arden »

Well also I don’t think a loop propagates transversely, Graeme. So that would be another difference.

What do you mean you need to see where the line goes? It goes vertically up and down. You can try this from the balcony window!

I used to think that the Steeple Cast didn’t work well because of gravity, but I can see now it’s the 90 degree angle change that’s the problem, not the vertical upcast, which is surprisingly easy.

Anyway if the loop was a transverse wave it would propagate at 90 degrees to the tip path, which it very obviously doesn’t in this case.

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Graeme H
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Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

#180

Post by Graeme H »

The differences I'm asking you to define are about when the wave became a loop.

You said "I would say it’s when the amplitude becomes significantly greater than the tip travel." I've asked if there were any other differences between when it was obviously a wave and when it was a loop. I would like you to base the answer on your observations of the line and your actions. Drop the definitions for the time being make observations.

I'm not next to you, but I think your rod is moving approximately horizontally and the waves are propagating vertically. At some stage, the snap wave amplitude exceeds the rod tip path amplitude as you increase the pause but the wave still propagates in the same direction. If these are not your observations, what are you seeing instead?

I am painfully aware that you don't think the loop propagates transversely. If you can't see those little snap cast loops falling from your rod to the water during this experiment and see that they are propagating in a transverse direction to your rod movement, we are not defining "transverse" in the same way.

Re the vertical casting: I would like to see how much the rod tip path is forming an arc rather than a straight line. If there is any curve to the path, the line will move outwards from you (see the discussion about casting inverted loops earlier in this thread.) This can be describes with a vector diagram but I'm not going to do that until tomorrow night.

Yes, the steeple cast breaks the 180˚ Rule in a big way.

Cheers,
Graeme
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