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## The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

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Paul Arden
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### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

I think if there is just enough energy to unroll the tethered loop and no more, then if you push forward the leader will collapse. However if there is sufficient energy and then some (more commonly as far as I’m concerned) then the loop won’t collapse. It’s easy to check this in 30s of casting.

“Giving” with the rod on turnover is the exact opposite of the check haul so it should be of no surprise I think.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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James9118
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Location: N.Wales

### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

If you consider the hypothesis that the fly cast consists of two parts; the fly leg momentum and a rotational element, then a couple of predictions can be made.

Firstly, the very longest casts will come with the absence of fly leg tension. I've done this test and so has Lasse (i.e. the non-tethered shooting head), and I believe our results support this prediction. More data would be greatly appreciated though.

Another prediction would be that you can recover a cast that is doomed to failure by increasing the fly leg tension. However you cannot collapse a cast that would have made it.

Now, obviously we can collapse casts, but these are casts that need some rod leg tension in order to be successful. Removing the rod-leg tension in this case causes the desired effect. A cast, e.g. a distance cast, which is thrown with sufficient momentum in the first place cannot be collapsed - all the #5 WC competitors know this hence the 'stoop' to reduce tension once the cast is away.

James.

James9118
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### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Bollocks

James9118
Posts: 1271
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:59 pm
Location: N.Wales

### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

This is what I meant to write, please ignore the above - I blame quite a bad hangover
James9118 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:02 am
If you consider the hypothesis that the fly cast consists of two parts; the fly leg momentum and a rotational element, then a couple of predictions can be made.

Firstly, the very longest casts will come with the absence of rod leg tension. I've done this test and so has Lasse (i.e. the non-tethered shooting head), and I believe our results support this prediction. More data would be greatly appreciated though.

Another prediction would be that you can recover a cast that is doomed to failure by increasing the rod leg tension. However you cannot collapse a cast that would have made it.

Now, obviously we can collapse casts, but these are casts that need some rod leg tension in order to be successful. Removing the rod-leg tension in this case causes the desired effect. A cast, e.g. a distance cast, which is thrown with sufficient momentum in the first place cannot be collapsed - all the #5 WC competitors know this hence the 'stoop' to reduce tension once the cast is away.

James.

nicholasfmoore
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### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Something I’ve noticed over the years is all these style arguments are based around shorter casts, less carry, but when we go for maximum performance there are a lot less ways to skin a cat. For example if you are throwing 120 then you can throw 100 laying on your back
I agree, Paul. I think the concept of "style doesn't matter or isn't important" has come about because of fishing distances. They either haven't learnt extreme distance or fished in a variety of places where one technique would hinder them. I don't know many anglers that can (or want to) throw 100' with a #5, and are happy to throw 60', so maybe that's why it's stuck? For example, you can't use the lefty technique where i fish, because you'll be in the reedmace all the time I think elbow forward is the most versatile, and it's the one i use for fishing. Don't know what everyone else thinks?

All the best
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe"

Paul Arden
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### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Firstly, the very longest casts will come with the absence of fly leg tension.
Hi James,
this is a pretty bold statement! How does the line and leader look once it has landed? Is it perfectly straight? In zero tailwind conditions I often find it difficult to get a straight leader without checking the shoot.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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John Waters
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm

### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Hi All,

Been that way for decades folks, well before the 5 weight distance was ever thought of. I love the light line events for a number of reasons but one is that it puts to bed once and for all the decades old response by some that ICSF competition casters only get the exceptional fly distances and the fly accuracy results they have achieved because of the gear they used. Love the fact that the same relative results are now being achieved by casters using ordinary fly fishing gear.

To me, it is summed up by one of the most ridiculous statements ever made about any sport. You know the one about "drive for show, putt for dough". I saw a post recently that stated something like distance (fly) is for show, but accuracy (fly) is for dough. Don't know how many British Open Golf championships have been won without long drives off the tee and accuracy on the green. Sure, the golfer with the best long game does not always win, nor does the best short game golfer always win, but all winners have both a good long game and a good short game.

No different in fly fishing.

That's why I love the concept of the ICSF Group and Overall Champion awards, or Champion of Champions. The best caster over the accuracy and distance events in any event the comprises both accuracy and distance, should be recognised.

Love seeing and reading about all your casting results. I know you all have much more enjoyment to come in your casting futures.

John

Paul Arden
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### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

It’s funny John, I think there are doers and there are criticisers! What I love fishing-wise that distance techniques has given me, is the ability to take fast sight-fishing shots in all wind conditions. That opens up many opportunities particularly for jungle fly fishing here in Malaysia and also saltwater flats.

I was throwing at free-swimming Sailfish, a couple of weeks ago, into a headwind where most anglers wouldn’t even be able to get a line out. And those skills come from comp distance.

But I don’t worry about what others think! It’s just stuff they haven’t learned yet!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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John Waters
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm

### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Yep, reckon that sums it up Paul,

John

Lasse Karlsson
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### Re: The practical side of considering loops as waves: Teaching and Self Improvement

Paul Arden wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:50 am
Firstly, the very longest casts will come with the absence of fly leg tension.
Hi James,
this is a pretty bold statement! How does the line and leader look once it has landed? Is it perfectly straight? In zero tailwind conditions I often find it difficult to get a straight leader without checking the shoot.

Cheers, Paul
That's because your tracking sucks mate

And James meant rodleg tension, not flyleg, and I agree, obviously

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***