So... what is number 6?

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Last night the FFi held a Zoom classroom event on "North American casting styles".

There were around 90 participants, so surely there were some folks on here that attended. Lou, was that you?

Anyway, they broke down casting into 6 major styles, four of which were discussed at length:
Elbow forward, they called West Coast style
Elbow out, they called Float tube style
Static elbow, wrist centered, they called East Coast dry fly style
And Kreh style they called Kreh style

The other two were referred to as "tournament" styles, but I never heard them identified.

I don't know what it is, but flycasting books and flytying videos always knock me out, and last nights combo was too much for me, as hard as I tried to stay awake. (Thomas' "full tie in 60 seconds" videos I think he made just for me!)

When I woke up, it was over. Did they ever mention the tournament styles? I'm sure one had to be 170. What was the other???

[Paul Arden]

Elbow out sounds like a fault to me! Must be hard on the shoulder. I think we need an biomechanics discussion and preferably involving some experts from other fields. I’ll have a bit of a think about this.

FWIW I teach four styles. Closed stance accuracy, open stance distance (eg Rajeff), oval/Belgian/Lefty and 170/Stopless. But style is perhaps the wrong word. I prefer “technique”.

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

But style is perhaps the wrong word. I prefer “technique”.

Cheers, Paul

YES!

[John Waters]

The further the elbow is "out" the more strain on the shoulder, as is the case in other close to the body throwing sports. The longer the line you cast, the more negative the impact. The other factor that needs to be considered with elbow movement is the height of the elbow with respect of the shoulder. Similarly, the longer the line, the more negative the impact a low elbow has.

I teach technique, and can be adjusted for circumstances but that always has consequences for efficiency, effectiveness and importantly but often ignored, the impact on muscles, tendons and joints. Elbow in, elbow out, in a float tube, on firm ground, on a casting platform, using a dry fly, using a clouser etc etc are just variations on body movement technique applicable to casting.

In my opinion, the "styles" defined highlight the confusing aspect of using the term. e.g. I use a float tube but do not cast with elbow out, or when I cast dry fly to spooky trout, I do not cast with a static elbow or centre my wrist. I assume "centred" means aligned with the sagittal plane or close to it. I maybe incorrect with that assumption about the wrist, but where I think confusion arises when defining "styles' with respect to a the use of a float tube or the fly we use, is that it does not account for the fact that casting with your elbow and wrist that moves in front of the shoulder is very efficient and effective in a float tube and with a dry fly. Also, defining movement by reference to a "style" does not account for the fact that body movement range and sequence is line length dependent, not base or fly dependant.

As I have said before here and on other forums, it is all about body movement and the components of that movement, those being the range, the sequence and the timing. My focus for my own training and my lesson structure is based on technique because that directly impacts skill. Absolutely agree with Paul and Lasse, technique is correct term to use to describe the body movement used in casting.

That sounds like a great discussion. Hopefully it will be repeated. In my opinion, the more of those types of forums the better.

John

[Graeme H]

I tried to sign up to watch it but it was "sold out". Not that I was worried, to be honest - the FFi needs to get over this North American centred philosophy if that "i" is ever going to mean something. (Are these casts from north America only applicable there? Did they originate there? East Coast of what continent?)

Cheers,
Graeme

[Paul Arden]

Good post John. I personally think the way that many in the FFF/I has seen style has always been a problem. It’s not uncommon to hear style is what the body does and substance is what the rod does. Now I don’t know about you but when I teach, I teach the caster how to move his body. It’s almost like it’s put in the “too hard” basket but that’s what we do. And I have to say instruction in flycasting is often very weak in this regards.

Stance for example. Often seen as style or personal choice. This is nonsense for me. A cast starts from the ground up. Casting rod foot forwards squares the shoulders and facilitates blocking. It has a profound affect on the casting stroke. Teaching and learning closed and open stance techniques would make for a very useful lesson for everyone. That fundamental stance change has more impact than any other change in style/technique IMO.

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Elbow out sounds like a fault to me! Must be hard on the shoulder. I think we need an biomechanics discussion and preferably involving some experts from other fields. I’ll have a bit of a think about this.

FWIW I teach four styles. Closed stance accuracy, open stance distance (eg Rajeff), oval/Belgian/Lefty and 170/Stopless. But style is perhaps the wrong word. I prefer “technique”.

Cheers, Paul

In defense of the FFi, the term "elbow out" was mine, not theirs. I believe they were referencing casting similar to what I have seen from others, including Bruce Richards. Personally, I have used a similar technique for years (decades?) when casting from a seated position in a canoe. Is it the best for tournament distance, of course not, but it does work well when you have to lift the rod... pros and cons...

And they did go into biomechanics and the pros and cons of each style... with the concern for possible injury being a con discussed for each.

So, really... no one took part in the Zoom? I was hoping to find out what I missed / slept through.

The Zoom idea did make me wonder if a SL Zoom could be set up? It looks to be a way to do face-to-face discussions with no geographical constraints... or misinterpretations due to the limits of written words.

[Paul Arden]

I’ve been looking very closely at zoom this past 12 months. I’ve started using it for teaching now. Once this is established I’ll do some group sessions. Certainly a Board meet would be very interesting. Or could be very interesting

[John Waters]

[jarmo]

I think the presentation will be available offline later. I was counting on that.

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