Elbow Out Style

[Paul Arden]

Hi guys,

So, a nice conversation about different styles/techniques going on. I’d be interested to talk about this one...

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Now I know quite a few people who use this style and get rather good at it (Bruce Richards for example!). It does seem to be a natural default style for many people who haven’t had lessons too.

So the first question is, if someone came to a lesson like this would you change it? How about if you threw some accuracy rings out and then they still cast using this style?

I personally don’t like it as a “foundation stroke” for a number of reasons. Firstly I think it can be really hard on the shoulder. Certainly I find it hard on my shoulder - maybe we are different? This is lateral rotation as I understand it. I was always taught that this is a weaker movement - it’s possible to still lead with the elbow of course... Certainly I think that there are more effective shoulder movements (pulling down for example). Of course it could well be that an injury prevents some of these other movements from taking place and this one becomes necessary.

The other reason I don’t like it, is that it is by design more difficult to track straight. Since the rod tip is not over the shoulder, or even slightly off-shoulder, and instead tracked to the side, every extension of carry will necessitate small changes to the backcast target. For example if the cast is short the backcast target is more off shoulder. If the target is long it is still off shoulder but slightly less. See diagram!

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Of course this can be dealt with so maybe it’s a small point when it comes to accuracy but it’s also there with distance too.

Consequently the way I deal when this style comes up, is to say that this is one technique, it has its uses (maybe we are dealing with a shoulder injury for example – and I always ask!) but it also has limitations, particularly when it comes to both accuracy and distance where we have alternative techniques. Then I teach the other techniques (unless it’s an injury) and now the student has three or more styles/techniques he/she can use and compare the value of each style when performed for various casts.

Are there benefits of using the shoulder in this way? Does it ever result in injury? Is it a style that you would predominantly teach and if so why?

Thanks, Paul

[John Waters]

Good questions, good discussion Paul.

I would like to see the full casting movement because what happens pre and post that position would provide the full picture, but just going on that still frame, I would not advise that position. I would suggest the student adopt a different forearm and hand position relative to the shoulder at that stage of the movement sequence, including more use of body rotation and less reliance on the elbow and hand as the casting drivers. Also, the body position displayed in that frame is very limiting in respect of increased external shoulder rotation and if attempted, would result in injury. That position forces a compromise between those two important casting technique objectives.

I would comment similarly if the forearm and hand positions were replicated but the elbow was low eg chest height, at the same point in the movement.

John

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

IF... someone showed up for lessons with this style???

Although I am without any hard statistical evidence I would not hesitate to say this is the most common "style" for casting down here in the salt.

In fact, I think all the others are seen as special techniques used by trout anglers or for tournaments.

[John Waters]

I agree Mangrove, the large majority of the casters who contact me for instruction have a similar action for their standard stroke. For short lines they have their elbow low at approx. chest height and lift the elbow to shoulder height and above, as they lengthen line. I would presume elbow out, irrespective of up or down, is the position adopted by the majority of fishos worldwide. For most fishos, it epitomises a traditional arm centric technique, but not in every case. It is limited with respect to accuracy and distance and as I said, forces a comprise between increased shoulder movement and the risk for injury i.e. increasing the range of movement increases the potential for injury.

John

[Paul Arden]

I think it probably comes from fear of hooking oneself in the early days of learning to cast.

I always remember one instructor, who was in his senior years then (this was 25 years ago) and had had a physical youth for sure - boxing, rugby; the good shit. And he was talking to me about this “style” and told me to to put my arm out there. He then vigorously moved it around to show me I had no control over it. Then he told me to pull my elbow in like I was about to throw a punch. Now when he pushed my arm around the only way he was going to move it was to knock me off my feet.

With someone who has never been taught, which is most people, it’s the first thing I change. Actually it’s the second thing I change after stance.

The other one I sometimes see is someone casting with their arm pointed straight up over their heads; no bend in the elbow at all. Now when you are sitting in a boat next to someone, and casting through the boat, this style can actually have a use, but I’m not even sure I would want to call it a technique

Cheers, Paul

[jarmo]

I think it probably comes from fear of hooking oneself in the early days of learning to cast.

That, and perhaps also hitting the water / catching bushes on a dropping backcast. A combination of going high, and at the same time maintaining some rotation of the shoulder.

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

After giving this some thought I believe the almost 100% of students that show up using the elbow out style, around here, is probably a cultural thing.

If you grew up in the US, are male, and at least somewhat athletic, you spent most of your time throwing things like baseballs or footballs. These were/are the most popular sports here, especially for organized youth sports. Soccer is rather a recent thing... definitely introduced long after my days.

In fact, if you did not put the elbow out so that you could get the hand behind and beyond the shoulder block, you were ridiculed as "throwing like a girl"!

Somewhere here on SL there was some discussion of baseball pitchers and there was a stop photo of a pro in mid stretch, but I can't find it. Also, there is one I supplied of a pro football quarterback. Both show extreme use of the elbow out and imply how the shoulder will have to rotate.

I think that also my be one reason it is so difficult to introduce the elbow forward style. But another thing I find is that many older male students report past rotator cuff injuries. (Maybe from throwing things in their youth... but if so they don't report that as the cause). The curious thing that I have found is that these students with injury have a particularly difficult time with elbow forward, particularly for the bc. For them I go to Lefty's later techniques that he proposed specifically for the older or injured.

If I get a student that doesn't show up at first with an elbow out, they usually have the static elbow (the old - hold a book between the arm and the torso) all wrist technique that they learnt on the small streams up north.

[Paul Arden]

Yes it’s very odd how rotator cuff injuries, which to my mind can be caused by this technique (certainly that’s where I feel the pressure when casting with the elbow out) seem to prevent casting with the elbow aligned. If this is right, then an injury caused by ‘poor’ technique later inhibits ‘good’ technique. Inverted commas because maybe not everyone will see it that way! All the more reason to get people into lessons early if so.

Fortunately it’s not (I don’t think) an accepted form elsewhere – am I right in assuming it’s acceptable there Gary? – and obviously from my perspective when teaching I have competition to support me making these changes, because it’s a not a style you’ll see used for either accuracy or distance in championships. You could probably get away with it in accuracy but you wouldn’t be anywhere in the game for distance (and I reckon you’d injure yourself pretty fast).

So I’ve always been happy to change it and the results have always been better tracking and less effort. If someone has a shoulder injury then often teaching along the lines of the way Lefty taught seems to be the only way. It’s not perfect and has inherent tracking issues for example, but if that’s the only pain free way to go then that’s the way to go.

Best with any injury for full recovery of course would be physio therapy and exercise plan. But that’s the job for a sports doctor.

It’s an interesting topic for me which is why I started it. It could well be that this is good technique for example and I’m wrong in thinking it can cause injury?

Cheers, Paul

[George C]

I'm confused (not that that is new); when you refer to an "elbow out style" or are you actually referring to an elbow up/forearm out cast?

For example, this accomplished caster's elbow appears quite high and out during delivery but his forearm seems inline with the elbow. So is he using an elbow out technique or not?

[jarmo]

I'm confused (not that that is new); when you refer to an "elbow out style" or are you actually referring to an elbow up/forearm out cast?

For example, this accomplished caster's elbow appears quite high and out during delivery but his forearm seems inline with the elbow. So is he using an elbow out technique or not?

Excellent question! Looking forward to answers.

The elbow seems to be dropping down during the backcast, but I still suspect that overall move would finish my shoulder.