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The importance of a sequential stop
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The importance of a sequential stop
Some time ago in a very long discussion with John and Phil, John was discussing blocking and we were talking about weight shift and so on. At the same time I was working on my left handed casting - right teaching left and so on.
I couldn’t work out why the left arm was getting tired until the penny dropped and I realised that most of the effort in the right arm was not forcing the rod to turn over, but instead the “effort” was in stopping different parts of the body in turn.
To be clear, we start… weight shift, torso, shoulder, elbow, wrist… we stop…. weight shift, torso, shoulder, forearm, wrist.
Unfortunately in history of fly casting instruction it is often taught to have a fixed wrist. This means that the final driving force becomes the elbow/forearm.
So while the difference is quite subtle, there is also very clear difference between forcing the elbow/forearm to move the rod, compared to applying the effort to stop the forearm in order to flip the wrist over (in a controlled manner!).
Of course I already do this with the right arm, in a totally subconscious manner, and when I finally understood this, I could teach it to the left side. Since then I’ve used it on all my students and the results have been excellent.
Apparently it is possible to teach old dogs new tricks
Cheers, Paul
PS I’m sure I’ve mentioned this before but I’m going to keep mentioning it! I still have much to learn
I couldn’t work out why the left arm was getting tired until the penny dropped and I realised that most of the effort in the right arm was not forcing the rod to turn over, but instead the “effort” was in stopping different parts of the body in turn.
To be clear, we start… weight shift, torso, shoulder, elbow, wrist… we stop…. weight shift, torso, shoulder, forearm, wrist.
Unfortunately in history of fly casting instruction it is often taught to have a fixed wrist. This means that the final driving force becomes the elbow/forearm.
So while the difference is quite subtle, there is also very clear difference between forcing the elbow/forearm to move the rod, compared to applying the effort to stop the forearm in order to flip the wrist over (in a controlled manner!).
Of course I already do this with the right arm, in a totally subconscious manner, and when I finally understood this, I could teach it to the left side. Since then I’ve used it on all my students and the results have been excellent.
Apparently it is possible to teach old dogs new tricks
Cheers, Paul
PS I’m sure I’ve mentioned this before but I’m going to keep mentioning it! I still have much to learn
Re: The importance of a sequential stop
Let us say you "hit it" at perpendicular. What is the relationship of "hitting" to sequence of stops? Is it, for example, before any of the stops:
HIT, weight shift, torso, shoulder, forearm, wrist
or, as another example
weight shift, torso, shoulder, HIT, forearm, wrist?
(I am exploring these concepts actively, the latest session this morning.)
HIT, weight shift, torso, shoulder, forearm, wrist
or, as another example
weight shift, torso, shoulder, HIT, forearm, wrist?
(I am exploring these concepts actively, the latest session this morning.)
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop
Acceleration and breaking/blocking must be taught and applied as a pair and each pairing links to the next pairing in the sequential movement chain. Each segment's acceleration precedes the blocking of that segment's acceleration. Speed must accumulate throughout the total chain of movement, each segment's speed adds the the speed generated by the preceding segment, all culminating in hand speed.
The rotation of the rod simply follows on, there is no HIT anywhere in good technique, just a rotation followed by a block. The so called "hit" is simply the haul.
John
The rotation of the rod simply follows on, there is no HIT anywhere in good technique, just a rotation followed by a block. The so called "hit" is simply the haul.
John
Re: The importance of a sequential stop
Ok, starting from this assumption, where is (the start of?) the haul in that sequence of stops? Is it, for example, before any of the stops:John Waters wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:36 am The rotation of the rod simply follows on, there is no HIT anywhere in good technique, just a rotation followed by a block. The so called "hit" is simply the haul.
HAUL, weight shift, torso, shoulder, forearm, wrist
or, as another example
weight shift, torso, shoulder, HAUL, forearm, wrist?
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop
For long line casting the haul is after the torso block and after forearm and wrist rotation. Long line casting is just throwing with a haul. All other throwing events use the block side, or non throwing arm to assist in the acceleration and blocking of the shoulders. It is surprisingly like a haul, but for casting the haul arm movement needs to be modified in order to accelerate the line.
John
John
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop
For me there is a “hit” in distance casting. It comes around the rod butt approaches or passes the perpendicular, and then it fees like an unleash of stored energy from the body, slamming the second half or rotation as hard as possible, launching up through the body on the forward cast, out from the body on the backcast. Ditto that’s when the haul is most explosive - or at least in my mind, I’m not sure that the haul analysis supports this however. But maybe that’s my shortcomings.
Another way of looking at the “hit”, for me anyway, is that it is a rapid rod rotation through the final part of the stroke, until the rod points at the target. (“Stopless”).
It’s a really good question actually. I can see I shall be casting on the roof tonight exploring this. I know John sees this aspect differently so it would be good to explore deeper. I’m certainly not glued to one approach… to be honest I’m really trying to learn from John too
Cheers, Paul
Another way of looking at the “hit”, for me anyway, is that it is a rapid rod rotation through the final part of the stroke, until the rod points at the target. (“Stopless”).
It’s a really good question actually. I can see I shall be casting on the roof tonight exploring this. I know John sees this aspect differently so it would be good to explore deeper. I’m certainly not glued to one approach… to be honest I’m really trying to learn from John too
Cheers, Paul
Re: The importance of a sequential stop
The only common thing in your distance casting and mine is the name of the activity. Paul's post just hit the spot, because today I was experimenting with the sequencing of the accelerations, haul and stops.
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop
It is interesting Paul, I think of it as generating and releasing stretch. The difference is how that stretch or energy is generated. I generate it by rotation, rather than through linear movement. As you increase the rod hand side acceleration you must block that speed faster. That to me is the "hit" sensation, it is the feeling that comes from the duality of intense speed and blocks, the culmination of that stretching of muscles and tendons, and their release. The longer the stretch, the faster the release and the more intense the feeling associated with that release.
To me the term "hit" implies a separate action, rather than being a consequential sensation of correct technique.
John
To me the term "hit" implies a separate action, rather than being a consequential sensation of correct technique.
John
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop
The stop of the haul Jarmo is a different to the block/stop used for body segment deceleration. The haul is like a golf swing with a driver, off the tee, when distance is the objective. Build up club head speed prior to club impact with the ball, make contact with the ball, and then follow through. Same with the haul; build up hand speed prior to release, and then follow through. The line release point equates to the club face making contact with the ball in my golf analogy.
In long line casting, the deceleration of the haul hand is the only deceleration of any body segment that does not add to the speed of the next segment in the movement chain, and that defines when and how to haul.
It makes no difference at all whether you are in a fishing environment or on a casting court. Technique transcends all casting environments, irrespective of what, and where, those environments exist.
John
In long line casting, the deceleration of the haul hand is the only deceleration of any body segment that does not add to the speed of the next segment in the movement chain, and that defines when and how to haul.
It makes no difference at all whether you are in a fishing environment or on a casting court. Technique transcends all casting environments, irrespective of what, and where, those environments exist.
John
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop
Hi John,
The haul is very interesting to me. I don’t read much about how to develop a truly effective haul. Often it appears to be an add-on to the stroke. I’m of the opinion that, done well, it dominates and indeed in part controls the stroke.
It’s very common to see hauling done from an almost completely straight arm. This is because most probably it is taught to bring the hands together to “remove slack” – or more accurately turn Slide into Drag.
However I think this is poor technique because the speed of the haul can only really come from rotating the arm around the shoulder done this way. When a better technique is shoulder, elbow, wrist, with the elbow and ultimately wrist providing the highest speed.
You must have studied the haul extensively in the T38 discipline?
Thanks, Paul
The haul is very interesting to me. I don’t read much about how to develop a truly effective haul. Often it appears to be an add-on to the stroke. I’m of the opinion that, done well, it dominates and indeed in part controls the stroke.
It’s very common to see hauling done from an almost completely straight arm. This is because most probably it is taught to bring the hands together to “remove slack” – or more accurately turn Slide into Drag.
However I think this is poor technique because the speed of the haul can only really come from rotating the arm around the shoulder done this way. When a better technique is shoulder, elbow, wrist, with the elbow and ultimately wrist providing the highest speed.
You must have studied the haul extensively in the T38 discipline?
Thanks, Paul