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The importance of a sequential stop

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John Waters
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop

#11

Post by John Waters » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:17 pm

Hi Paul,

You are correct, the haul does not get the instructional focus it requires. I do not know why it is not a major part of all instructional programs as it is applicable to both short and long line casting/fishing. It does not matter what profile the line has, or the the length of line carried, the objective is the same - line speed generation. If you have to employ the haul, or part thereof, to remove slack, then the focus should be on the rod hand movement, not the haul. Agree fully with your statement, linking shoulder, elbow and wrist, the shoulder starts the movement through utilisation of the upper arm and the elbow through the forearm movement. It can be either concurrent or sequential. The wrist does add to the chain and should be utilised. You have encapsulated modern coaching brilliantly with your statement that the haul "dominates" the stroke. It always has for the best casters and coaches, but it is now a staple in most, if not all ICSF casting. Tempo is the only difference between T38 or Sea Trout and Trout Distance casting. The weight of the line that is being false cast is inconsequential. Same can be said for 120 gram and 55 gram two handed casting.

Hopefully we can have a casting session next year. It is a pity we are restricted to a few lines of text.

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop

#12

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:40 pm

Indeed it is John. We have a serious Covid problem here at the moment and opening up the country again is planned Nov/Dec and that’s still I believe without International travel. Anyway…

Yep it’s interesting. I made this video for an online student of mine (he is an excellent caster, also from near you actually. Well Australia anyway!). I don’t know if you twist the hand when you haul, or if other people do, it’s only something I realised I was doing some years ago.



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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop

#13

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:44 pm

Just slightly...


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Lasse
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It makes no difference at all whether you are in a fishing environment or on a casting court. Technique transcends all casting environments, irrespective of what, and where, those environments exist.

John Waters

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Paul Arden
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop

#14

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:27 pm

I wonder how much difference it makes? I can see the difference when taking short range shots. I’ll have a play with what you are doing - cheers!!

Thanks,
Paul
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John Waters
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop

#15

Post by John Waters » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:13 am

Hi Paul and Lasse,

Like you both, I flick my wrist when I haul. For short line casts I use it far more than I do in longer line casts. In the former I use it to add speed to the haul hand but for the latter, it is more of a result of my line release than a method whereby I add speed to the line. It is definitely subservient to the arm segments in my distance casts. I do not consciously use the wrist in my distance haul movement chain. The line on which my haul hand travels is also more vertical than most use, and the movement range is shorter. That is a consequence of me trying to better coordinate my haul with my forearm rotation.

I think my summation paragraph, that you both have kindly referenced, could be far better worded.

It should read - It makes no difference at all whether you are in a fishing environment or on a casting court. Technique transcends all casting environments, irrespective of what they are, or, where they exist.

Trying to string a few intelligible syllables together is always a challenge more my ageing brain and after reading it again, the need for me to read my posts a few times before I hit submit, was reinforced.

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop

#16

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:44 am

Hi chaps,

I always haul around my thumbnail. I remember - oooh quite some time ago when Lasse joined me in Montana – experimenting with hauling around the index finger. I’m pretty sure back then that I wasn’t twisting the wrist at the end of the haul. It might be a result of developing Torque Twist with the rod hand.

I think it might make sense to twist during the haul and not at the end, as Lasse appears to be doing on my very small screen, somewhere around or just after MCL. I’ll need to jump on the roof tonight and have a play. I’ve certainly played with releasing at this point, with mixed results.

I would love to develop a forward haul that is as good as my back. I constantly take it apart and rebuild it, but haven’t developed the same sort of explosive haul.

The haul is one area where I believe I see a distinct advantage to be gained from lifting weights. It’s not so much that you can move the line quicker; rather that you can more your hand quicker (without injury!).

Cheers, Paul
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop

#17

Post by John Waters » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:15 am

I don't haul around my thumb or finger Paul. On most occasions I just pinch the line between thumb and index finger. If the line is too wet to grasp that way, I wrap the line around my hand. I don't think you can compare the back haul and forward haul because on the back cast you can, to a great extent, remove the wrist from the power stroke, whereas, on the forward cast you must use the wrist on the power stroke. By that I mean you have the opportunity to lock the rod into your underarm on the back, which actually removes the need to use the weakest joint in the process, that being the wrist. The wrist does open on the backcast but it is primarily a followthrough action, after the power has been applied. However, the opposite is true on the forward cast, were of necessity, the wrist is a critical part of the movement chain. Rather than almost eliminating the weak wrist on the backcast, we are required to employ it fully on the forward cast not as a followthrough but as a driver of speed and power. The wrist does not get any stronger on the forward cast, and is in play when we haul on the forward cast. We need the wrist to deliver a number of outcomes when it is activated on the forward cast, including maintaining forward acceleration on an inclining trajectory. The faster and more powerful the forward haul, the more impact it has on the wrist turnover. Under these circumstances it has the propensity to be limited in delivering the results required. The haul just feels less powerful because when it is delivering the most power, it is when the wrist is snapping forward. In my view that's why the forward haul never seems as effective as the back haul. For what it is worth, I focus on increasing speed generation of the rod hand prior to the wrist turning over, so that any limiting impact of the haul is minimised.

One day I hope to do that very thing,

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop

#18

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:09 pm

I agree it’s probably not a straightforward comparison, John, because as you say back and front stroke is different with the rod arm. However when we have had hauls analysed the back haul registers significantly higher speeds than the forward haul. I think this is partly due to the twisted body angle with open stance (undoubtedly I believe the best/fastest forward haul comes from “closed” stance), but I also think it’s down to the back haul being delivered starting from the chest whereas the front haul starts by swinging from the shoulder.

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop

#19

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:29 pm

Paul, have you tried closed stance, and hauling straight back, similar to the straight forward haul of the back cast?
For me it feels as powerful and fast as the backhaul, but with a tendency to screw up my tracking on delivery.

Cheers
Lasse
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It makes no difference at all whether you are in a fishing environment or on a casting court. Technique transcends all casting environments, irrespective of what, and where, those environments exist.

John Waters

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gordonjudd
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Re: The importance of a sequential stop

#20

Post by gordonjudd » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:46 pm

The line release point equates to the club face making contact with the ball in my golf analogy.
John,
When do you aim release the line relative to RSP1?
Gordy

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