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What are we?

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VGB
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What are we?

#1

Post by VGB »

It’s a distinction that occurred to me while reading a book on learning skills movement, are we instructors, coaches, both or has the teaching style evolved with time?
A good analogy I like to use is the old Chinese proverb:

“Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”

Give a man a fish is the instructor teaching the student and giving them new skills, but they will be limited. Teach a man to fish is like showing the student how to use these skills to improve, and the possibilities are endless (Coaching).

https://www.nzsia.org/2016/03/the-diffe ... -coaching/
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Re: What are we?

#2

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Vince,

I think that might be similar to asking what the difference is between and cast and a mend :) While we can separate them it’s also possible to use the terms interchangeably. For example the first definition of “coaching” I could find, that didn’t mean travelling by bus, was “train or instruct (a team or player).” I think it also might depend a little bit according to which side of the pond you are. Anyway when people ask me what I do nowadays I say I’m a fishing guide :D

The origin of the word coach is from Hungarian whereas instruct is Latin. Where’s Magnum when you need him?

Cheers, Paul
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VGB
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Re: What are we?

#3

Post by VGB »

Hi Paul

I’m reading a very new book on teaching skills movement that is probably a bit sciencey for most but is very well written. However, he brushes over the instruction vs coaching distinction as though you shouldn’t be reading the text unless you understand the distinction. In the U.K, the casting instructor world sees coaching as very generalised and maybe a step below instructors but that might be a national distinction. If I look across the sports world that is reversed, here’s another one
Coaching and sport instruction are similar in many ways. Both are performed by professionals who have mastered knowledge about physical activities, as well as the skills and techniques required to transmit that knowledge to other people. Both also require expertise in designing practice experiences that stimulate learning and conditioning experiences to enhance performance.

But coaching and instruction also differ significantly; in particular, they tend to teach people at different skill levels. An instructor's efforts are usually, though not always, directed toward novices or those lacking a high level of proficiency - for example, young children in a community youth sport development program, middle-aged people in a beginner swimming class at a community pool, and people of all ages who want to improve their swing by consulting a teaching professional at the local driving range.

In contrast, coaches at the high school, college, and professional levels typically direct their planning and efforts toward an already skilled population. Teams at the high school level are composed primarily of students with above-average physical proficiency for their age and gender. College teams tend to be populated by an even more select group culled from the best of the high school teams, and, of course, professional and elite (i.e., international-level) athletes comprise an even more highly skilled group. As the level of competition increases, the pool of eligible performers gets smaller, and the pressure to win typically grows.
https://us.humankinetics.com/blogs/exce ... nstruction
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Re: What are we?

#4

Post by Paul Arden »

I agree. I think in the UK we would be much more likely to use the term “instructing” and possibly in the US “coaching”. I personally don’t make the distinctions that I’m reading here. I’ve certainly used the terms interchangeably to effectively mean the same thing. The only use of the term “coach” in flycasting that I know of, was for a lower level teaching program.

I think there are semantics being drawn that are questionable and down to personal interpretation. Language is a funny thing :) Of course it’s constantly evolving too. As we know people can a bee in their bonnet about a word and spend the rest of their lives arguing about it :D

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VGB
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Re: What are we?

#5

Post by VGB »

It looks like a case of fly casting going it’s own way again 😂. I couldn’t make sense of some of the information I was reading through my fly casting instructor goggles, so considered it through the prism of instructing being an autocratic style of teaching with coaching being more consultative. It works better with your beginner, intermediate and elite distinctions as well.
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Re: What are we?

#6

Post by Paul Arden »

I can see how the line has been drawn, I just think good instruction is what is being described as coaching. :D You don’t start looking for feedback and two way communication just because you call yourself a coach. However if that’s what the language now means in 2021 then we should call ourselves coaches!

I think it’s more down to tradition which term you use, ie teacher, coach, instructor, guide. I don’t know many music coaches for example. And I don’t know of any rugby instructors. Personally I started using the term coaching a few years ago for “fly casting instruction” because I think it can be perceived as friendlier, and has the advantage that it sounds more long-term, which is what I want.

Do we have students, clients or guests?

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Re: What are we?

#7

Post by VGB »

I dunno for sure, I’m an old git and I was taught athletics by AAA coaches, so the difference has existed outside of fly casting for a long time. But when I learned for the very first time it was instruction, very definitely one way, I would say I was coached when it became 2 way. Improvement was facilitated not directed. Regarding your second point, I’d guess clients during the lesson when money starts to change hands but there’s also a personal relationship outside the lesson in many cases.
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Re: What are we?

#8

Post by Carol »

Semantics?

As a beginner caster, I'd ask a lot of questions when one-on-one with my mentor. As a more "advanced" caster seeking to become even more advanced, I still ask questions because we're building on already-learned fundamentals.

Remember college? When in a 101 class, the professor was an instructor and lecturer. When in a 401 class, the professor still was in instructor and lecturer, because there were still new things to learn, but we were learning at a deeper/higher level.
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Re: What are we?

#9

Post by VGB »

Hi Carol

I was aiming more at digging into teaching styles, I’ve seen little on this in fly casting literature. Based on management and leadership studies that I have done in the past, I tried to map what I knew across to fly casting and got this far:

1. Autocratic instructor - suitable for beginners

2. Consultative coaching - suitable for intermediate casters

3. Facilitator? Maybe for elite athletes

It appears that professional coaching recognises 4 styles but there are variations on the themes:

https://www.athleteassessments.com/four ... ng-styles/

https://www.athleteassessments.com/four ... ng-styles/

Related to this, I believe that David Diaz posted an article on direct and indirect learning in fly casting but I couldn’t find it.

Regards

Vince
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Re: What are we?

#10

Post by Paul Arden »

Personally I don’t think it’s as simple as that. How we teach I think is more related to how someone learns than what level they are at. We know that we can say the same thing to 10 people, 6 or 7 respond favourably, others stay the same and one or two even go backwards. Suggest the thing that makes the one or two who would go backwards forward and the other 7 go backwards!

It’s quite fascinating. After a while you should be able to read your student and know which route to explore. I think that applies to all levels of ability.

I always liked Mel Krieger’s engineers and poets however I think flycasting is really about poetry and I say that as an engineer :D

Cheers, Paul
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