Changing task constraints

[Paul Arden]

Yes very interesting. Thanks!

[Phil Blackmar]

Thank you everyone, this is all very interesting. Lasse, Thank you for the videos as well.

Golf has club head speed measuring devices; it might be very interesting to fit one to measure tip and line speed when casting. If nothing else, it would make for a great training aid.

Rick looks in the videos that he could throw it a country mile, so to speak. Among other things, he has a very quick "snap" and you can hear the speed on the audio. I'm curious, is that snap a mini 170, quick stop or blend of the two? It appears to move similar to the snap in a two handed spey cast.

It would seem the 170 has the added benefit of being a longer stroke so that it "prepares" the line for the final rapid acceleration. This has an obvious tremendous benefit. The "walking" or stepping thru the stoke that has come into vogue in distance casting offers the same merits of straightening and aligning the line readying it for being thrust forward, or backward. It would be interesting to have data on the quick snap vs longer 170 tip speed because IF, the tip moves faster in a quick snap, then combining the walk thru method with a quick snap could have merit.

My longest 170 casts and best looking loops come when I "feel" pressuring the rod thru and PAST the haul. It's a small timing window, but it feels like the thrust "over and downward" comes just as the haul finishes. I'm expecting a big YES to this question: Is this wrong??? Am I hauling too soon?

Thanks for the conversation
All the best
Phil

[VGB]

Something like this Phil?



Regards

Vince

[Lasse Karlsson]

My longest 170 casts and best looking loops come when I "feel" pressuring the rod thru and PAST the haul. It's a small timing window, but it feels like the thrust "over and downward" comes just as the haul finishes. I'm expecting a big YES to this question: Is this wrong??? Am I hauling too soon?

Thanks for the conversation
All the best
Phil

Hi Phil

You want your haul peak speed to be when the rodtip hits the end of pulling the line in the intended direction. When your haul peaks, the line is moving at haul peak speed plus rodtip speed at that point. If the rodtip continues in the intended direction, you will get slack as the rod now is playing catch up to the line, which is now travelling faster than the rodtip. The feel of presserende the rotation past and through the haul, is the running through the finishline I was talking about earlier

And you really want to release the line when you hit that peak speed in the haul for max distance

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

Far too complicated for me, Phil. Once the haul Is completed that’s the end of the casting stroke on a 170, because the line slows after this point. Line speed is rod tip speed plus haul speed. Stop the haul and the fly leg will not travel faster, only slower afterwards, meaning that’s the separation point between the legs. (I’m taking about an aggressive haul here).

For me, the haul controls the stroke and the timing. It actually controls it physically as well. So my advice is to build a distance stroke around the haul and not the other way around. When you do this you’ll be in the top 1% of casters. Ie develop your best haul and fit the stroke around it.

20 years ago we used to think that the haul ended and then the rod unloaded (you’ll still find literature supporting this erroneous view). Sexyloops and video changed that. We also thought that the Casting Stroke finished at RSP - most people still do. But actually that only applies to a non-hauled cast. For a hauled cast, the CS finishes at the end of the haul, because after this moment the line begins to slow.

The haul controls the stroke. The stroke constrains the haul, if you prioritise the stroke.

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

For me, the haul controls the stroke and the timing. It actually controls it physically as well. So my advice is to build a distance stroke around the haul and not the other way around. When you do this you’ll be in the top 1% of casters. Ie develop your best haul and fit the stroke around it.

The haul controls the stroke. The stroke constrains the haul, if you prioritise the stroke.

Cheers, Paul

I have been working on "pull" in my stroke the past couple months which has really helped the layout/tracking problem I was having at longer distances. I have found that when carrying 75 ft of line or less, I can create very high line speeds with a tight loop using a hand pull and fast elbow extension but keeping the wrist from turning over. It creates a lot of counterflex so I have to finish the stroke around 10:30 or 11 to get the tight loop. However, I have found the layout at longer distances can come down in a pile like Lasse described.

So I have recently been trying to combine the pull with more rotation, kind of blending a quick stop with a 170 if that makes any sense. Paul- I feel like I need to get a handle on what I need to do with the rod hand, then forget about the rod hand and work on haul timing as you suggest.

I haven't worked on max carry in a while with the 5 MED. Since I have taken more to the surf in recent weeks, casting length in the surf has become more of a focus. 9 wt rod, 9 wt floating or sink tip line with fairly large mullet imitation flies. Keeping the line above the waves on the back cast is an issue, so trying to max out shooting distances. I was content with the speed and loop size with the sharp pull and stop until you guys got me experimenting with the 170 again. All the videos from Vince and Lasse have been very helpful. Thank you!

So all this discussion has got me back out messing with 5 MED distance again. Is there a senior division at the worlds, and if so, what is the age cut off?

John-from a rotation standpoint, I feel better when things stay in close. When I square the shoulders entirely for delivery, I feel I lose this connection. I have been experimenting delivering with the shoulders more closed but the elbow leading which seems to help tracking. The rotation takes the form of the left shoulders pulling down and then around on delivery. Does this make any sense? or send up warning flags to you?

Thanks all-got to run.
Phil

[John Waters]

Hi Phil,

Sorry mate, excuse my ignorance but I'm not sure what you mean by " When I square the shoulders entirely for delivery, I feel I lose this connection. I have been experimenting delivering with the shoulders more closed but the elbow leading which seems to help tracking. The rotation takes the form of the left shoulders pulling down and then around on delivery"

John

[John Waters]

Hi Phil,

From the ICSF rules;

The ICSF organises World and Continental Championships as well as sanctioned international competitions for Men, Ladies, Juniors and Masters according following these International Casting Tournament Rules. Juniors are allowed to participate in men and ladies class.
A Master I. (Men55) is a caster as from the calendar year they reach the age of 55 and until the end of the calendar year they reach the age of 66.
A Master II. (Men67+) is a caster as from the calendar year they reach the age of 67. A Master (Ladies 55) is a caster as from the calendar year they reach the age of 55.
A Junior is a caster up to the end of the calendar year in which they reach the age of 18.

Have a chat to Larry, he'll fill you in.

John