Changing task constraints

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

There most definetly is a strength issue, just try and do it non dominant handed (maybe into a target at 100 feet, hint hint) and one discovers that fine motor control comes from strength too...

Cheers
Lasse

I'm almost there Lasse!

And I agree with it being a strength issue, especially since my accuracy, loop shape, etc.. is almost the same for both "hands" now.

The thing that stands out for me is that it is not a "hand" thing, nor even an arm thing... your entire body has to gain strength on that "other" side... from the ground up as Paul likes to say.

Now... trying to learn to 170 on my left side might just be something new to play with!

[Paul Arden]

Hmmm well the issue I have with that, Lasse, is that I lift weighs and I lift the same weight with each arm. If anything my left side I believe is actually slightly stronger. So I think it’s a coordination issue (and to a lesser degree a sighting with dominant eye issue). When I’ve been working on left-handed open stance distance, a big revelation for me was that I was using more force on the left side, trying to apply force through the entire stroke and not just at the end with the final rotation from the hand/wrist. Which was why my forearm was getting tired, not because it’s weaker.

However the late rotation on the 170 often utilises the Cradle Grip or a palm forward wrist plane. There must be an element of control strength required for these. It would be possible to know if this is the issue by learning with a shorter rod. There is far less leverage with an 8’ or even 7’ rod. We could try the same with a 12’ rod (which is why they are double handed of course).

So let me just talk about the way I see the 170 for Vince. For me it’s two back-to-back stopless delivery casts. In other words we are using the same stopless backcast stroke that we use to deliver stopless backhanded for the 170 distance cast. The result is very high line speed (far higher than is possible with OSD), which in turn allows greater carry, wind penetration, higher tension and loop morphing. We then take this long carry and repeat the same stopless delivery on the forward cast.

I actually think Steve’s forward cast is much closer to the wide arc we used to apply and our wide arc is now narrower (as a consequence of using stiffer rods), so the differences are not that great, if at all. They were at one time very different. But where the 170 really makes its stand is getting the entire MED head outside the rod tip and positioned at the top of the loop. It’s possible to do this with OSD backcast in perfect conditions only. With the 170 it straightens “with purpose”.

There are two reasons why the 170 generates higher line speed on the backcast. 1) we apply far more force with the rod – and through the point where the OSD BC normally stops and 2) the hauling is considerably faster because it’s the separation speed of the hand and stripping guide.

I don’t think that the haul on the FC is different between OSD and 170; in fact the strokes can be very similar. Mostly I see the difference on the BC. The reason Steve has a great haul is not because of the Stroke but because he’s an animal and he’s developed it. Rick Hartman was the same, different stroke but the sort of haul you wouldn’t want to be standing behind (because your nuts would explode!).

With regards flylines the advantages of stopless start to disappear and with short heads. Indeed the 170 “works” because while we pull more line away from the target, the line that is left behind at the top of the loop, is long enough that it sets the trajectory. Of course you can carry more overhang with stopless but I’m not convinced that maximum overhang on the backcast is always the best way to throw distance on the forward.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Hi Gary,

I spent some time learning to 170 left handed. But what your post makes me think about is hauling. One of my biggest weaknesses with any left-handed distance casting is my right-handed haul. That’s most certainly not a strength issue!

I’ll be very interested to know what you find. I’ve had maybe three serous attempts at learning in. I would have potentially won two WC finals (or at the very least had a better place) had I fully mastered it. I think I shall also have another go. In fact I’m taking my rod to town today on Lasse’s insistence

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Thanks for the explanation Paul, as ever, I’ll bounce a couple of things back to see where it leads.

I lift weighs and I lift the same weight with each arm. If anything my left side I believe is actually slightly stronger. So I think it’s a coordination issue (and to a lesser degree a sighting with dominant eye issue).

I couldn’t tell which side of my body is stronger. Being a leftie, I probably spend a lot of time doing stuff with the wrong side of my body because the world is built for right handed people. When I switch sides, my movement accuracy is poor. It may be that we are trying to compensate for the lack of accuracy by using more acceleration to get line speed. If you want to do a speed accuracy trade off experiment on yourself, try writing with your wrong hand. Few of us find the mass of a pen an issue.

Science seems to indicate that what is commonly called muscle memory can be attributed to 2 effects, changes in the brain and the nervous system:



https://www.technologynetworks.com/neur ... lin-330568

My takeaway is that development of both of these attributes looks to be dependent upon well designed practice regimes.

I actually think Steve’s forward cast is much closer to the wide arc we used to apply and our wide arc is now narrower (as a consequence of using stiffer rods), so the differences are not that great, if at all.

I used to think that I could avoid damaging my shoulder by using a narrower arc like Steve Rajeff but it seemed to me that he opened his arc on the delivery stroke only (bc/fc) which would still cause the hyperextension that I was trying to avoid.

There are two reasons why the 170 generates higher line speed on the backcast. 1) we apply far more force with the rod – and through the point where the OSD BC normally stops and 2) the hauling is considerably faster because it’s the separation speed of the hand and stripping guide.

Is this additional back cast speed real or a construct? We are not designed to throw backwards, so I struggle a bit with the concept, unless there’s an advantage in the bc haul that I haven’t seen.

With regards flylines the advantages of stopless start to disappear and with short heads. Indeed the 170 “works” because while we pull more line away from the target, the line that is left behind at the top of the loop, is long enough that it sets the trajectory. Of course you can carry more overhang with stopless but I’m not convinced that maximum overhang on the backcast is always the best way to throw distance on the forward.

I’m interested to hear from the wider audience on these statements. If distance is related to carry, are you saying that the 170 is the answer to carrying a long head? The overhang on the bc seems to contradict the earlier statement on bc line speed. It doesn’t gel for me

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Hi Vince,

I think to a large degree the left/right hand also has to do with practise, at least for many people. The haul is an example of this. My left handed haul is FAR superior to my right handed haul. This can only be practise because like most right handed people I use my right hand in preference for almost everything else. But when it comes to hauling the left hand has had millions and millions of goes at developing it.

Will check your video later. Just heading out for a run (in town tonight). But I have a little time to post some more before I go.

The increase in backcast speed with the 170 is of course very real. You can hear the speed for one thing. It’s a massive gear change, for me anyway.

I liked Lasse’s analogy of running up the the 100m mark and trying to stop on the line (OSD) vs sprinting through the line (170). Better would be to imagine a 5m race perhaps. Trying to explode through the point when the tip deviates away from line trajectory path is I believe how the 170 functions. It’s a very different force application.

Incidentally taking of which, that “gear change” is an excellent practise exercise for more advanced casters. Changing from the “blocked” OSD backcast to Stopless 170 backcast and back and forth. What I like about the 170 application of force is that the force is domed. And this is very different to how many try to throw distance, which is by stabbing forward with the thumb at the target. The force is around/circular. Learning it in the 170 is often an effective way of learning a more minimised force application arc on the OSD (or any stroke for that matter). There certainly are times when stabbing is effective, it helps narrow the loop for example, but mostly I think that doming the force as opposed to trying to apply it in a straight line is more effective.

I have cast DTs many times in competition shoutouts. The only way I can get to the backing knot to my hauling hand during carry is with the 170. The lumi-line I have (from memory) is 97’ long. I can get to this carry point on the roof of my boat. I haven’t measured what my max carry with OSD is, but I will do so this week. I would be amazed if it was much more than 85’. However factor in the wind and the line speed from the 170 can still straighten 90’+ but OSD can’t. I’ve seen Steve struggle with winds (I’ve seen everyone struggle with wind of course) but I know in these same circumstances the 170 will still perform.

Lasse has a good example of switching from OSD to 170 with extended overhang in one of his videos. So for me it will always carry more. But the issue sometimes is you don’t always want to carry your maximum. An example of this is the Triangle Taper. I and many others can carry this to the backing knot. It’s clunky but I can do it. However it’s not the way to get max distance on the forward cast. With these sorts of lines (SLX is another one) I will carefully increase my carry with each shot a metre at a time to try to find what is optimal (tough to do in 2 minutes comp but that’s what I do). I really dislike short WF lines for distance. The way to fish them is with 1 maybe 2m overhang. The way to throw them in comp is maybe 8-12m of overhang.

Gotta run. Back later!

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

I don't know about you Paul, but lifting a weight and casting a line is pretty much not the same thing for me

Its all the little adjustments we do during a stroke that requires motorcontrol and you get that from strengthening all the smaller muscles and having a strong core.

With wich hand do you throw a stone the furthest?
My left is stronger than my right , has been since my injury in 18, when I throw a rock with my left, I feel weak, and its because all the smaller muscles that aid in stability isn't as strong as the ones in my right that have been toned for 49 years.

Oh, and my dominant eye is the left one....

And I use 170 with short shootingheads
And no, carrying 8-12 meter overhang is not the way to win shootouts with shirter belly lines, but keep doing it, I'll keep beating you then

Cheers
Lasse

[Lasse Karlsson]

There are two reasons why the 170 generates higher line speed on the backcast. 1) we apply far more force with the rod – and through the point where the OSD BC normally stops and 2) the hauling is considerably faster because it’s the separation speed of the hand and stripping guide.

Is this additional back cast speed real or a construct? We are not designed to throw backwards, so I struggle a bit with the concept, unless there’s an advantage in the bc haul that I haven’t seen.

With regards flylines the advantages of stopless start to disappear and with short heads. Indeed the 170 “works” because while we pull more line away from the target, the line that is left behind at the top of the loop, is long enough that it sets the trajectory. Of course you can carry more overhang with stopless but I’m not convinced that maximum overhang on the backcast is always the best way to throw distance on the forward.

I’m interested to hear from the wider audience on these statements. If distance is related to carry, are you saying that the 170 is the answer to carrying a long head? The overhang on the bc seems to contradict the earlier statement on bc line speed. It doesn’t gel for me

Regards

Vince

The higher velocity in the BC is very real. As most know, I fish shootingheads very exclusivly, I rarely 170 those, unless I have a strong back wind. Then the difference to straighten 40 feet of brick on a string into a strong wind between OSD and 170 is significant for me. Same with carry, I can carry my thunderbolt DT as a shootinghead on a very good day on ground level (done it a few times) but mine is only 94 feet long OSD I max out like 10 feet before I get to the backing knot.

The backcast is about setting up the line layout for a good forward cast. The straighter the better, so the more line velocity on a long line we can get, the better the outlay will be. OCD looses in velocity, and gets a bigger sack. Just look at Steve's casting in Cumbria, theres clips of him from straight forward...

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

Very interesting article. Thanks Vince. How the brain stores memories is beyond me. I imagine some sort of Cloud device

[Paul Arden]

Hi Lasse,

The amount of overhand with short heads varies for optimal distance. The point was carrying a TT to the backing knot it not how to throw Distance, despite the carry being longest. With a running as opposed to shooting line, 1-2m of overhang is not the right approach either. And it’s something inbetween.

Fine tuned motor control skills I don’t think is strength. I would agree with the controlled motor skills part however and with Vince that’s it’s stored somewhere in the mind. Which is not strength either. That’s why I don’t think the left/right example floats

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Thanks both, let me see if I can find the holes in my understanding. There’s 2 things that stand out for me.

I’m not convinced that maximum overhang on the backcast is always the best way to throw distance on the forward.

If you are able to generate more line speed on the bc, why wouldn’t you want to maximise carry?

Secondly, we are wired together to throw forwards much better than backwards, so why is the backcast speed higher than forward?

I would agree with the controlled motor skills part however and with Vince that’s it’s stored somewhere in the mind.

I would suggest that it’s a bit wider than that because the myelin sheath spreads right through our nervous system.

Regards

Vince