Changing task constraints

[Paul Arden]

Hi Vince,

If your tracking is off it’s probably because you are watching the loops unroll and not picking targets before you make your next casting stroke. This takes a while to learn. But dropping the line to the ground, between casting strokes, is the way to do it.

I hope that your shoulder/back is fine!

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Hi Paul, I think it was a case of me throwing my arm into the cast, instead of accelerating with a purpose. No twinges yet, I’ll see what morning brings

Regards

Vince

[Phil Blackmar]

That power application is important. Obviously best is to experiment with many ways of applying force while carrying a long line. Most anglers attempt to apply force in a straight line with the thumb. Probably because they think this is SLP at the rod tip but I find it far more effective to dome the force and hand path. The loops will be more open of course, certainly initially, but they will ultimately go further. Imagine drawing a line with the rod tip from the clouds down to the target.

Cheers, Paul

I'm curious the difference in distance for you guys between a 170 delivery and an abrupt stop?? It seems the 170 would have less tip speed but applies force over a longer distance where the quick stop generates more speed but over a much shorter distance. I don't understand physics enough to know the implications. I have read in baseball pitching that longer application of force equates to more ball speed.

From a physiology standpoint, it seems easier to use the bigger muscles all the way to the end of the quick stop where the 170 final rotation with full extension is all elbow down? However, John, if rotation begins with the rod hand even with the shoulder rather than extended, larger muscles of the shoulder and trunk can be used to rotate the rod over in a 170 arc.

Thanks
Phil

[VGB]

Hi Phil

In my limited experience of 170, the tip speed is higher for 170, certainly on the forward cast. From the physics standpoint, work done on the line is the important parameter to focus on, it also makes it easier to apply a smooth change in the rate of acceleration that the caster applies. I wasn't around in ye olde days but I would guess that some of the history associated with the quick stop is due to people either experiencing or reading about the dynamic application factor and coming to an incorrect conclusion about how that would effect line speed. If you want to delve into the DAF, it is worth raising the topic in the physics area but it won't help you with the cast. The other point that the hard stoppers miss is the effect on tip path associated with the rapid deceleration and often results in a fault due to the misapplication of force.

I think Paul advocates the palm on top which should position the elbow but Mr Crabtree was there first:

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Hi Phil,

The thing about comparing the stops is that with the abrupt stop we are trying to have RSP close to alignment with the line trajectory and we stop earlier to accomplish this. However with the Stopless we just welly the rod through this point. This is, I believe, principally why line speed is higher with Stopless.

Imagine in golf trying to stop the club prior to ball contact and having the shaft unload and hit the ball. (I know that in reality it actually unloads earlier from one of your previous posts, if I recall correctly!). That is what is being attempted with the abrupt stop. As a means of controlling tip path it makes sense but for max tip speed, for when the rod tip deviates away from the line path, Stopless is the way to go.

In both strokes for me, the final quick rotation element is delivered with the hand/wrist or even by closing the fingers. This rapid acceleration should occur late in rotation, arguably around or after MCL. That’s a little bit like going slow through right until ball contact and then hitting it. I suppose a major difference is that in FCing the purpose of rod bend is primarily for turning rotation at the butt into translation at the rod tip.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Good stuff Vince! So he was!!

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Phil

Not completly a 170, but the difference in trying to stop abruptly for a delivery and then just rotating through it and letting go one the way is quite visibel in this clip



First is very high stop, and went about 80 feet and landed in a heap, second went a bit straighter and thus further, last one went well over 100 feet, and is how I cast when fishing.

Cheers
Lasse

[John Waters]

From a physiology standpoint, it seems easier to use the bigger muscles all the way to the end of the quick stop where the 170 final rotation with full extension is all elbow down? However, John, if rotation begins with the rod hand even with the shoulder rather than extended, larger muscles of the shoulder and trunk can be used to rotate the rod over in a 170 arc.

Thanks
Phil

Hi Phil,

Not only easier Phil, but if you want to fully achieve any casting objective, it is essential. Don't focus on the rod hand, it is only the end of the chain.

John

[John Waters]

Hi Paul,

It is interesting how the two distance techniques evolved. US casters use the small arc plus drift technique used by Jon Tarantino and others before him, whereas the longer stopless stroke (170) developed on European casting sport courts over the same decades. In my opinion, the 170 stroke evolved because of the type of fibre glass blank tapers used by tournament casters prior to the 80's when graphite blanks became more accessible across the globe.

John

[Paul Arden]

Hi John,

I know I’ve read that history but that’s not the route it came to 5WT Comp distance. Back in 2002 there was a 5WT comp in the States “Best of the West” with a drift boat as a prize! I filmed many of the competitors’ strokes for Sexyloops. One stood out in that. An elephant called Rick Hartman. He had watched Jim Gunderson’s rod breaking forward delivery and stylised it into both directions while casting in a barn in Texas. When I first met him his backcast was awful and he would have scored highly in the “ugliest caster in the world” awards. I actually told my friend Jon Allen I’m never going to learn this “technique” because I’m not an elephant.

And then I met Rick again sometime later and he had the smoothest tightest longest loops I’d ever seen. I had no choice after that.

So while wide stopless arcs and long strokes may, indeed must, have been used before, this current “European” 5WT style comes from a barn in Texas. A bit like ZZ Top. It was a nightmare casting with all the sheep. Incidentally I’m not even sure we would have a 5WT World Championships event if it wasn’t for this.

Cheers, Paul