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Back Casts

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VGB
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Re: Back Casts

#141

Post by VGB »

Hi Paul
Rock star drinking. Oooh sounds dangerous. :p
It was a pint with Steve Hogarth and we are both the wrong side of 60. Turned out to be a bit dangerous, I just tested positive for COVID which has kyboshed today’s lesson. It must be one of those socially transmitted diseases that occurs in a rock n roll world.
If they don’t practise then we may never move beyond this stage.
Absolutely, I also find it useful when picking up a different set up for the first time. I recall that AAPGAI had a part of the assessment where they were handed some completely different kit to what they had used by the assessors to see if they could adapt. Great idea in my opinion.

Regards

Vince


Regards

Vince
Casting instruction - making simple things complicated since 1765

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John Waters
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Re: Back Casts

#142

Post by John Waters »

VGB wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:25 am Hi John

We’ll have to stay disagreed on the continuous tension, there’s modelling and physical evidence to support that view but the topic is best left because this is a teaching thread and not relevant to the discussion.
As I said, other options are available, the key for me is how and when you best incorporate that turning movement into the stroke and the impact of poor turning technique in the the direction of the backcast and hence the forward cast.
If you start a student square, casting parallel to their shoulders there’s no need for them to turn until you can see see that they have force application and timing sorted. I’ve had few problems with the turning, maybe the odd one loses an element of control but it is always a problem with them no longer tracking the line and would have been an issue had I started them there.

Regards

Vince
Hi Vince,

We will, I think it is relevant to the discussion because I teach it but more than happy to leave it. Would appreciate you sending me a PM to point me to the modelling you refer to as I would very much like to read it. What I would be interested in identifying is what role, if any, tension has in the cast and if continuous tension is both incorrect and irrelevant, what is the impact, if any, on the cast if the rod tip loses tension before the loop forms. I'll look forward to the modelling because my casting experience indicates to me that when I fail to maintain tension in the pre-loop movement of the rod tip, my casts are less effective than when I do.

Thanks in advance.

Turning any part of the body during the stroke is an interesting subject and one I want to research because it has a number of advantages other than sight.

Really enjoyed this discussion,

John
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VGB
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Re: Back Casts

#143

Post by VGB »

Hi John

I’ve sent you stuff on FB Messenger
I'll look forward to the modelling because my casting experience indicates to me that when I fail to maintain tension in the pre-loop movement of the rod tip, my casts are less effective than when I do.
The fly line analysis paper describes tension from the start of the stroke to roll out with tension reversing at loop formation having passed through zero. My own observations of lumpy acceleration is that the fly leg is not straight, often a sort of dog leg. The actual shape of the fly leg will be affected by how long the interruption in the acceleration occurs and how you restart it. In combination with various line tapers, I guess you can get multiple outcomes rather than a predictable layout.
Turning any part of the body during the stroke is an interesting subject and one I want to research because it has a number of advantages other than sight.
Agreed, I’ve played with it.

Regards

Vince
Casting instruction - making simple things complicated since 1765

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John Waters
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Re: Back Casts

#144

Post by John Waters »

VGB wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:07 am Hi John

I’ve sent you stuff on FB Messenger
I'll look forward to the modelling because my casting experience indicates to me that when I fail to maintain tension in the pre-loop movement of the rod tip, my casts are less effective than when I do.
The fly line analysis paper describes tension from the start of the stroke to roll out with tension reversing at loop formation having passed through zero. My own observations of lumpy acceleration is that the fly leg is not straight, often a sort of dog leg. The actual shape of the fly leg will be affected by how long the interruption in the acceleration occurs and how you restart it. In combination with various line tapers, I guess you can get multiple outcomes rather than a predictable layout.
Turning any part of the body during the stroke is an interesting subject and one I want to research because it has a number of advantages other than sight.
Agreed, I’ve played with it.

Regards

Vince
Hi Vince,

Agree with you about fly line profiles, I experiment a lot by joining level sections of line of different diameters for the 27 gram Sea Trout and the 55 gram two hand Salmon events. They are the only events that allow such experimentation, all other distance events define the line to be used. It's good fun, haven't found the right line yet but it keeps me out of mischief.

Thanks for that reference paper; Physical and Numerical Modeling of the Dynamic Behavior of a Fly Line, Caroline Gatti and N. C. Perkins in 2001. it was one of the first I reviewed. It is an interesting paper but does not explore the section of the cast I focus on.

The authors defines three phases of the cast and to quote, "The first phase is characterized by a very rapid but smooth increases in fly line tension and speed with little to no flexible body deformation of the fly line.” In my language that is the stage when tension is impacting the rod tip as the rod tip is moved forward and incorporates translation and rotation, increasing hand speed and culmination in the rod block or stop. That is the section of the cast that I am referring to and is displayed in the paper in the published casting diagrams a) and b). I term it as the engine of the cast. The tension increases (I use continuously) from a minimum to a maximum then after the block or stop, the loop forms and unfurls. I think what we do with the rod up to loop formation primarily determines performance and that is my focus. It incorporates the body movement that creates the cast.

Gatti and Perkins define the second phase as the section of the cast when the tension drops dramatically, and state that begins after the abrupt stop of the rod tip. They define the third stage as loop propagation. (post rod block/stop)

The authors' conclusion that the tension changes throughout the cast as the rod tip moves forward, then straightens, then moves into counterflex, is reflected in the published graphs of tension v time and is an observation casters would all agree with. I certainly do.

Concluding my contribution to this post (some may question “contribution”) may I make a request.
If anyone knows of any papers that research the movements pre the rod block/stop phase of the cast, I would appreciate emailing me with subject and author details.

Thanks again Vince, and thanks in advance to anyone who wishes to send me any data.

John
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Paul Arden
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Re: Back Casts

#145

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Chaps,

So I see this in two parts.

Part 1 – to learn basic loop control, particularly on the backcast, the student needs to be able to watch his loops. I think we all agree.

Part 2 a) to go fishing for moving fish, to hit targets in front, and for a whole range of practical fishing reasons, the student needs to learn to throw a neat and consistent backcast without looking. Using a Closed stance and drawing back from the front target helps to facilitate this.

b) gets interesting for me. Because I think for efficient throwing we want the front and backcast targets to be perpendicular to the centre line of shoulders. I see several common faults in flycasting. One is instead of casting square to the shoulders, the cast at an angle across the body. On the front cast this leads to inconsistencies and many problems for distance. On the casting strokes it also usually means shoulder external/internal rotation as opposed to, what I would like to see as a “foundation stroke”, shoulder flexion and extension.
23634061-9E99-43FC-8EDD-7A21A1714D14.png
So basically watching back loops using the Triangle Method is often a completely different use of the body when compared to Closed Accuracy or Open Stance Distance. And this is why iy requires an additional learning step, not just because it’s harder to watch the loops, but because the body is used differently.

Which brings up the Instructor question of how best to go from 1 to 2? Personally I go from Triangle to raised Triangle, casting foot moved forward, and then tilt/rotate the triangle forwards/down. And then stuff to reinforce it – in particular target casting.

Cheers, Paul
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Paul Arden
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Re: Back Casts

#146

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi John,

I think there are several things here: force being applied to the rod butt by the hand, force being applied to the fly line by the rod tip and the tension in the line. Continuous force being applied by the rod tip during the Casting Stroke, which you have mentioned, makes sense to me.

Continuous Tension I think is misleading because as Vince says it’s often (perhaps always) erroneously attributed. The Belgian Cast for example is often described as a continuous tension cast, but I’m not sure what that’s supposed to mean and I think what it is meant to mean is simply wrong :D (I can’t believe I’m agreeing with Vince but it happens sometimes). That force can be continually applied to the line, this could be correct.

This would be an interesting topic! :cool:

Cheers, Paul
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VGB
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Re: Back Casts

#147

Post by VGB »

Hi John and Paul

I’m not agreeing with Paul but we are saying much the same thing :p

Unless I’m mentoring an instructor candidate, I am more concerned with what the student understands they have to do rather than the technical accuracy of my explanation. I want them to see and replicate a controlled fly leg and I don’t want language to get in the way. As well as demonstration, there will be a cacophony of bangs, pops and whees rather than words to add emphasis to particular movements I want them to notice.I want to remove any barriers to learning and one of those that is thrown over the fence is technical complexity

Regards

Vince
Casting instruction - making simple things complicated since 1765

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VGB
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Re: Back Casts

#148

Post by VGB »

Hi Paul

Looking at #145

Part 1 👍

Part 2a - Partially agree but this is too restrictive “Using a Closed stance and drawing back from the front target helps to facilitate this.” If this is your only solution, the casters are removing flies from trees most of the day, paddling their kayak around or shuffling their feet to get in the perfect spot to cast. I want the student to have an adaptable and robust cast that is suited to where they fish.

Part 2b - Same issue as part a, and implies that there’s only 1 way to cast. I watched Lasse’s Norwegian video where the mens section of trout distance used a variety of techniques, also in the YouTube WC videos, most of them were checking their back cast. It is also contrary to the stance you advise in your own fishing distance master class video.

I have watched a lot of fishermen trained this way throwing wide open and mistimed back casts and they don’t have a clue what is going on behind them, nor the means to find out. It also reduces their ability to access the feedback (perception) to check their own performance in the absence of an instructor, thus reducing the options for skill retention. It also means that a high back cast is the only option they have which is very limiting for fishing.
One is instead of casting square to the shoulders, the cast at an angle across the body. On the front cast this leads to inconsistencies and many problems for distance.
I do this because it reduces wear and tear on my rotator cuff, accuracy is not a drama especially at range and I can still see behind me.
And this is why iy requires an additional learning step, not just because it’s harder to watch the loops, but because the body is used differently.
I’ve had no issues with this at all, as soon as you give a front target to aim at, most people graduate to this position naturally. If anything, I have to hold off people who have fished before from turning until they have a consistent back cast. Starting people in a closed stance and then moving them around for fishing distance brings in a later new skill to be learned and one I would argue is more difficult because they have a constrained short stroke that is engrained.

Additionally, students with power application problems have a limited stroke length to work within, which leaves little room for smoothing out their acceleration. As a philosophy, having a one size cast fits all just doesn’t work for me. In my view, its a process intended to make life easy for the instructor not to produce a robust, adaptable cast that is fit for a variety of fishing purposes.

Otherwise, I agree with you :D

Regards

Vince
Casting instruction - making simple things complicated since 1765

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Paul Arden
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Re: Back Casts

#149

Post by Paul Arden »

There is undoubtedly a difference in teaching here Vince. And a different philosophy as well. So this is going to be a much longer answer than I have time for at this minute because I’m on a supplies run!

However there is one thing I would point out quickly in that Closed Accuracy and Open Distance are much closer that you think. The elements of straightness in CA assist OSD. The stroke itself to me is fundamentally the same, the only addition is weight shift and torso twist. Closed Accuracy becomes OSD quite easily and has the same or similar blocking elements. What is a departure in terms of what we do with our arms, particularly on the backcast, is the 170. So I would link Closed Accuracy and OSD together and I for one certainly use the first to teach the second. Indeed many problems in the second can be solved in the first.

Back to the other point later!! :cool:

Cheers, Paul
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VGB
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Re: Back Casts

#150

Post by VGB »

Hi Paul
Closed Accuracy becomes OSD quite easily and has the same or similar blocking elements.
It also works vice versa :D I also think philosophy is the wrong place to start, we are a service industry and should be starting from customer requirements.

Regards

Vince
Casting instruction - making simple things complicated since 1765

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