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Student Levels

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RSalar
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Re: Student Levels

#21

Post by RSalar »

VGB wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:51 am Hi Ron
I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept of, "unconsciously incompetent." Is that a form of disillusionment?
It’s surprisingly common, casters often self taught that don’t need instruction but quite fancy that they can teach. I see them more at shows where they come along to the stand, not to get a lesson but to show their wife or mate what they can do, maybe get a nod of respect from you. They might want you just to tweak their “style” a bit. Many can throw 70ft of line but are working really hard to do it, occasionally body parts may become detached. For me, these are the hardest class of student, you have to do a lot of interpersonal stuff just to get them into a receptive state to learn whilst avoiding a clash with their ego.

Regards

Vince
Hi Vince,

I’d like to did a little deeper into this because I think it may be the key point in getting someone to take casting lessons. You said: “casters often self taught [think] that [they] don’t need instruction but quite fancy that they can teach.” That pretty much describes me. I never went to a show and pretended to know how to put on a casting demonstration. But I have taught maybe 6 people how to fly cast. They knew nothing and after some instruction they could throw a fly far enough and accurately enough to catch fish. Some of them went on to be very good fly fishermen. I taught my daughter how to cast maybe 15 years ago — she throws a pretty good line and really enjoys fly fishing. So, I think you are saying (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that I was unconsciously incompetent because I wasn’t competent up to a certain level. But I knew I was not a world class elite caster. I knew I was average to maybe a little above average. So I was consciously incompetent at casting at a advanced level. But I was unconsciously competent at casting within my ability. Isn’t that true of everyone? If you can cast a 5 wt 125 feet and that is your limit then you are incompetent of casting farther. I would think you are consciously incompetent of casting farther but there must come a point that even the best in the world thinks he’s very competent and doesn’t realize that if he just tweeted a certain thing and did something a bit different he could gain a little distance.

I think the point is that everyone can improve and just because you are not a world class elite caster doesn’t mean you can’t teach a complete beginner. I don’t think teaching a complete beginner is that difficult — it seems way harder to take someone from mid level to high level. And I think that’s true of almost every sport. I can teach someone how to shoot a gun in about 30 minutes but it takes a lot of coaching and practice to get to a high level. And I think most people know they could improve — they know they are not at their very best — they are consciously incompetent but don’t feel the desire to work at getting better.

People need to be motivated to take a lesson — they are very conscious of the fact that a lesson would help — they just lack the motivation.

All the best,

Ron
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Paul Arden
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Re: Student Levels

#22

Post by Paul Arden »

Here is the rub of course because you don’t actually need a lesson to go fly fishing. I certainly didn’t have a lesson to begin with and I know very very few people who did. My first lesson came after 15 years of FFing and I was very serious long before this point. Fishing 300+ days/year. Writing for magazines. I even entered a few stillwater comps back then for my sins. Couldn’t double haul properly, couldn’t make a decent roll cast, but I did catch a lot of fish :laugh:

The reason I got a couple of lessons in the first place was because I wanted to teach fishing more formally and get paid for it. I figured getting a qualification was important. Like you Ron, I had certainly taught a bunch of people when working at the fishing lodge, as well as friends of course. Goodness knows how :laugh:

Cheers, Paul
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VGB
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Re: Student Levels

#23

Post by VGB »

Hi Ron
I’d like to did a little deeper into this because I think it may be the key point in getting someone to take casting lessons. You said: “casters often self taught [think] that [they] don’t need instruction but quite fancy that they can teach..........So, I think you are saying (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that I was unconsciously incompetent because I wasn’t competent up to a certain level.
Not really, just that there are people out there that are a collection of bad habits but can hit the water with a fly and think that being able to catch a few fish proves that they are good enough to teach. They may well spawn another generation of casters that believe that a rod is a spring and carrots help you see in the dark because that is what their grandad taught them. Eventually, these casters and/or their students may well want to move up to fishing and casting that is more challenging but find that their collection of bad habits does not provide a good baseline from which to progress. One of the reasons we teach old way/new way is because it is far easier to take someone like this back to the beginning than try and fix every fault they arrive with individually. The latter is like wrestling with jelly, you fix one bit and another one pops out. A week after the lesson, they will be back where they started.
But I was unconsciously competent at casting within my ability. Isn’t that true of everyone?
Are you, or do you have a built in problem that has little effect within your limits but might manifest itself downstream? If it makes you feel better, I had loads and they still pop out when I'm operating at my limits.
I think the point is that everyone can improve and just because you are not a world class elite caster doesn’t mean you can’t teach a complete beginner.
I'm not a world class elite caster but I have a good grounding mechanics and teaching fly casting. I posted something in a Facebook discussion that talked about addresses the difference between performing and coaching that probably addresses your question better than I have:

https://appliedsportpsych.org/resources ... vSnmkzjZ_U
Expertise is often confused with personal achievement. Often people falsely assume that elite achievement as an athlete automatically translates into expert knowledge. It is important to keep in mind that expertise is the combination of knowledge and knowing what to do with that knowledge. Recently, Alan Castel and his colleagues (2006) explored the ‘dark side’ of expertise. They found that ‘doing’ knowledge often did not translate into the ability to teach or pass on information effectively to other people. Individuals who were successful on a high level typically had automated their skills to such a level that they lost touch with how they learned those skills or the process of building those skills.
Regards

Vince
Casting instruction - making simple things complicated since 1765

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VGB
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Re: Student Levels

#24

Post by VGB »

Paul Arden wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:24 pm Couldn’t double haul properly, couldn’t make a decent roll cast, but I did catch a lot of fish :laugh:

The reason I got a couple of lessons in the first place was because I wanted to teach fishing more formally and get paid for it. I figured getting a qualification was important. Like you Ron, I had certainly taught a bunch of people when working at the fishing lodge, as well as friends of course. Goodness knows how :laugh:
I'm starting to see why national skill levels are so low :D :D

Regards

Vince
Casting instruction - making simple things complicated since 1765

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VGB
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Re: Student Levels

#25

Post by VGB »

Ron

This is well worth a listen. Will has had a lot of opportunity to look at people who want to become instructors and highlights some of the common misconceptions

https://www.buzzsprout.com/402997/98669 ... nstructing

Regards

Vince
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Paul Arden
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Re: Student Levels

#26

Post by Paul Arden »

I was thinking about this today and I would put Ron as an advanced caster. Not actually because of his current throwing ability but because of the way he gathers information and makes use of it. That must be the 50 years of fly fishing coming into play :D

Quite fascinating actually and very unusual. Ron will become very good indeed.

With what I showed him today he might be throwing a 120 in a couple of weeks. I threw 4 in my second year of distance casting. I have a really interesting leason planned next which I’ll give to someone else first.

Anyway, sorry I’m totally shot from building this bed. I feel like I’ve swum 10 miles :laugh:
Beginners - People who have never cast
Advanced but not elite - Paul and a few mates
Intermediates - the rest of the world
That’s actually true but I try very hard to include everyone.

Cheers, Paul
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VGB
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Re: Student Levels

#27

Post by VGB »

Paul Arden wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:04 pm I was thinking about this today and I would put Ron as an advanced caster. Not actually because of his current throwing ability but because of the way he gathers information and makes use of it. That must be the 50 years of fly fishing coming into play :D
What sort of knowledge do you need to be an advanced caster when you can’t throw 120ft?

Regards

Vince
Casting instruction - making simple things complicated since 1765

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RSalar
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Re: Student Levels

#28

Post by RSalar »

VGB wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:08 pm
Paul Arden wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:04 pm I was thinking about this today and I would put Ron as an advanced caster. Not actually because of his current throwing ability but because of the way he gathers information and makes use of it. That must be the 50 years of fly fishing coming into play :D
What sort of knowledge do you need to be an advanced caster when you can’t throw 120ft?

Regards

Vince

I don't consider myself an advanced caster but I also don't think casting 120' makes you an advanced caster either. I think being able to cast many different ways in order to present a fly in a variety of conditions and difficult situations with proficiency is what makes someone an advanced caster. (by "casting" I mean casting, mending, and presenting the fly) If all you can do is throw a long line, I'd put you in the intermediate category.

While I'm at it, I might as well take issue with the definition of a beginner :D Defining a beginner caster as: " People who have never cast" doesn't make sense. There are hundreds of millions of people who have never cast and never will. How can you call them beginner casters? You have to make at least one cast to be called a caster! :evil:

A beginner caster is someone who has just begun to learn how to cast and hasn't gained the skills required to be an intermediate caster. An intermediate caster is a caster who can double haul to 80 feet, and roll cast to 50 feet. I would put an accuracy requirement and a fly presentation requirement into the equation as well. You need to be able to make an accurate, delicate presentation with a dry fly out to 80'. You need to be able to lift a wet fly off the water without creating a big loud splash that spooks every fish within a 100 yards.

And knowledge definitely is part of the equation when you are ranking casting ability levels. An intermediate caster should know how to tie all of the basic knots used to tie on a fly, attach a tippet to a leader, fly line to backing and backing to the reel. He/she should understand fly line tapers and weights, sinking and floating, how to dress a line, how to maintain a fly reel, take care of ferrules, assemble and unassembled a fly rod. An intermediate caster should know how to do all the required tasks of using a fly rod and be able to perform all of the tasks on his/her own.

Ok time for a stiff drink! :laugh:


Cheers,

Ron
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Graeme H
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Re: Student Levels

#29

Post by Graeme H »

RSalar wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:23 am A beginner caster is someone who has just begun to learn how to cast and hasn't gained the skills required to be an intermediate caster. An intermediate caster is a caster who can double haul to 80 feet, and roll cast to 50 feet. I would put an accuracy requirement and a fly presentation requirement into the equation as well. You need to be able to make an accurate, delicate presentation with a dry fly out to 80'. You need to be able to lift a wet fly off the water without creating a big loud splash that spooks every fish within a 100 yards.
Hi Ron,

I believe context is very important.

Maybe 2% (?) of my students regularly fish dry flies to trout. That type of fishing just not something we have easy access to here in Western Australia. Why would they "need to make an accurate, delicate presentation with a dry fly out to 80 feet" before they could be called intermediate casters? Why would they need to roll cast to 50'?

Most of the guys in my club have no trouble double hauling to 80' but very few of them could accurately make a mend, an intentional slack line presentation or a roll cast to 40'. These are all skills that are so rarely used that they don't even register as something to learn. The guys in the club who easily reach 100' (and that's about 40% of them) are some of the best fishermen I've ever seen, and yet they can't roll cast to save themselves.

They are advanced casters for their particular fishing context. Put them on a 30' wide trout stream where spey and roll casts rule and they would struggle as much as a local expert trout caster would struggle with a 10 wt and a heavy crab fly hitting a permit at 90'. And both of these examples of expert fishermen would initially struggle with Paul's snakehead fishing because that is a unique casting experience that most of us will never encounter. (We are all beginners when we first arrive at Paul's lake, regardless of the level we occupy before we leave home ... :) )

We all build the skills required for the fishing we most encounter. Fishing new situations well outside our comfort zones broadens our experience and helps us move up through those levels. It is also so much fun to push ourselves. :) But there are very few casters who intentionally expand their skills beyond their common requirements, knowing that they will rarely get the chance to fish those situations.

Cheers,
Graeme
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Paul Arden
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Re: Student Levels

#30

Post by Paul Arden »

I’ll tell you how I realised Graeme was in the upper level. He had worked out that continuing to slip line during Slide at the beginning of the forward cast with the Snakehead Shot made the fly go further. This is something I do but it’s not something I teach until much later. Graeme had already figured it out and had incorporated it into his stroke.

Advanced Learner, Vince, not Advanced Caster. :p As a result of this conversation, I have beginner – we teach loop control drills, basic casts and to widen the use of the body. Intermediate – to focus in on technique making efficient use of the body (my FP of last week). Advanced – teaching skills that require a high degree of coordination. If we can get everyone into that advanced level then great! That’s certainly what I’ve been trying to do for the past 25 years :D

I’m not so keen to put numbers on it because for me it’s more about how the caster balances and moves his body and the resulting loop shapes. Loop and body control, that’s where it is for me.

I agree beginner that doesn’t end with the second cast :D Roughly speaking, I think beginner ends with the Double Haul. But it’s not as simple as that because if you teach someone to double haul in the first lesson I think they are still beginners. So it’s not a hard boundary but they will certainly move to Intermediate level much quicker.

Cheers, Paul
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